Glutathione helps

[spyr]

Did you know how to take the betain HCL ? Here a tutorial to self-testing and treatment for low HCl/hypochlorhydria :
1. Begin by taking one 350–750 mg capsule of betaine HCl with a protein-containing meal. A normal response in a healthy person would be discomfort—basically heartburn. If you do not feel a burning sensation, begin taking two capsules with each protein-containing meal.
2. If there are no reactions after 2 days, increase the number of capsules with each meal to three.
3. Continue increasing the number of capsules every 2 days, using up to eight capsules (or as your
healthcare professional suggests) with each meal if necessary. These dosages may seem large, but a normally functioning stomach manufactures considerably more. You’ll know you’ve taken too much if you experience tingling, heartburn, diarrhea, or any type of discomfort including a feeling of unease, digestive discomfort, neck ache, backache, headache, or any new odd symptom. If you experience tingling, burning, or any symptom that is uncomfortable, you can neutralize the acid with 1 tsp baking soda in water or milk.
4. When you reach a state of tingling, burning, or any other type of discomfort, cut back by one capsule per meal. If the discomfort continues, discontinue the HCl and consult with your healthcare professional.
5. Once you have established a dose (up to 8 capsules or less, if warmth or heaviness occurs), continue this dose.

Personally, I can take 8 capsules without having any discomfort. I don't see any improvement of my breath with betain, but maybe it will have a positive impact on my gut flora with time.


I'm really happy that NAC is working for you !
But when you say it works, how do you know it ? Does someone tell you ?

[KL123]

Hi Spyr, back when I thought my bb was due to hiatal hernia a physiotherapist prescribed me betaine HCI upon hearing about my symptoms which were constant feeling of smell of food I ate even a day before. Now, this physio of course didn't know about the sulfate process so this was more of a shot in the dark, athough certainly more indicated than anti-acids therapy prescribed me by gastroenterologist. I can't say I experienced much difference on betaine so I discontinued it, this is no surprise considering it doesn't have strong impact on the sulfate process.

Now to the good news; I'm only on the 3rd pill of NAC and guys this stuff is working
(I'm supplementing also with Thiamine TTFD among other things)

Interesting.

NAC has selenium and access of selenium causes bad breath.

Are you still taking NAC and do you see the different? I will be more than happy to give it a shot together with ACV pills.

[mauricio]

cut

Hi didn't follow those instructions in taking betaine, on the bottle there was an advised dose (1 pill iirc) which was the same suggested by the physio, I took double that dose (2) for a couple of weeks. Those pills were quite big iirc. Total lack of even the least significant result just prompted me to stop it. In light of my recent progresses I just don't know or see how that would help, I don't have a feeling that was the issue.


Trust me for this type of bb you know when you don't have sulfate fumes coming up, you would probably still be able to tell it if you had no sense of smell such is the intensity of those fumes. It is literally night and day, it's not just a slight improvement.
Since last year I stopped using toothpaste and mouthwash cause I wanted to better track changes and not have masking 'agents'.
I'd feel the tiniest piece of garlic/onions for hours, it was horrible. This week I've been having salads filled with raw onions and raw garlic, top it off with several espressos after the meal, within half a hour I literally don't smell anything.

Thiamine TTFD has a very strong odor, these past weeks before getting the NAC I had this constant odor coming up at me at all time, now it is totally gone. I'm keeping myself from swallowing several of those pills such is the enthusiasm I wasn't too optimist after Nolab post hence my surprise. I'm not even taking molybdenum, ordered from an amazon seller and it is taking ages to be delivered.

[mauricio]

Interesting.

NAC has selenium and access of selenium causes bad breath.

Are you still taking NAC and do you see the different? I will be more than happy to give it a shot together with ACV pills.

Glutathione is a part in the sulfate transportation process and B1 utilization process, there's several factors involved and a lot of ramifications,in my case it seems glutathione production was an issue for some reason, that's really something interesting to dig into.

[spyr]

cut

Hi didn't follow those instructions in taking betaine, on the bottle there was an advised dose (1 pill iirc) which was the same suggested by the physio, I took double that dose (2) for a couple of weeks. Those pills were quite big iirc. Total lack of even the least significant result just prompted me to stop it. In light of my recent progresses I just don't know or see how that would help, I don't have a feeling that was the issue.


Trust me for this type of bb you know when you don't have sulfate fumes coming up, you would probably still be able to tell it if you had no sense of smell such is the intensity of those fumes. It is literally night and day, it's not just a slight improvement.
Since last year I stopped using toothpaste and mouthwash cause I wanted to better track changes and not have masking 'agents'.
I'd feel the tiniest piece of garlic/onions for hours, it was horrible. This week I've been having salads filled with raw onions and raw garlic, top it off with several espressos after the meal, within half a hour I literally don't smell anything.

Thiamine TTFD has a very strong odor, these past weeks before getting the NAC I had this constant odor coming up at me at all time, now it is totally gone. I'm keeping myself from swallowing several of those pills such is the enthusiasm I wasn't too optimist after Nolab post hence my surprise. I'm not even taking molybdenum, ordered from an amazon seller and it is taking ages to be delivered.

HI, you were able to take 2 pills of betain that means you have probably low stomach acid too. I'm not saying low stomach acid is the reason of our bb. But I think low stomach acid may be one of the consequences of our main problem (the liver). Maybe nolab has also low stomach acid, it's probably because of our liver who can't do it's job well. I really can't explain why.

I actually don't understand how you can know when there is sulfate flumes coming up. In my case,I NEVER smell my own flumes, so I only trust people's reactions. You are saying toothpaste is a masking agent ? It's not masking anything for us ! It just changes what you think you smell (mint for example), but not what other people smell (rotten egg or sh*t). I'm really surprised that you can smell your own bb, because in our case it doesn't come mouth or nose, it originates from the air we exhale so I didn't think it was possible to smell it.

For example one day I thought I had a really horrible bad breath, I could smell the rotten banana's smell in my mouth after eating one. I had zero confidence that day because I had some meetings and I had to talk to plenty of people. But surprisingly, people were giving ZERO reactions. The whole day people didn't smell anything, I even took a train that day where I was really close to people, but no one gave a single reaction to it.
That day I understood one thing : the state of my mouth can't tell me if my breath smell, and I can never smell my own breath.

When I take NAC, I also have that feeling where I smell less the food that I just ate. And for my case I feel like it's related with the phlegm which is reduced. How much NAC you take per day ?

[mauricio]

It is possible there might be some liver issue, I wanna indeed do detox processes and protocols.

Yes masking agent only for our perception of course.

Just to give you an idea, when these fumes peaked this time last year my tongue went in flames, try imagine what it would be like to have a lighter burning it, it was absurd.

If you are smelling less the food you just ate I think it means something is working.

I'm taking 600mg a day.

[mauricio]

HI, you were able to take 2 pills of betain that means you have probably low stomach acid too.

I've been drinking ACV before my meals, I'm feeling so much better in terms of digestion so yea pretty safe to assume I've low stomach acid.

[mauricio]

Little update; I've interrupted NAC to see what would happen, at the same time I've started supplementing with iron and chewing the b12 tablets instead of just swallowing them. To my surprise I stayed bb free. One reason I could think of is b12 assimilation slightly increased enough to keep the minimum methylation cycle, in the meantime I must also have loaded enough molybdenum reserves to utilize that b12... I don't know, just speculating here but thought of informing you.

[Anomi]

Thank you!
I tried to use NAC but it was really hard because of my GERD - it gave me a taste of acidity in the mouth. Also the smell was extremely bad
Do you think only chewing B12 will help?

[mauricio]

Thank you!
I tried to use NAC but it was really hard because of my GERD - it gave me a taste of acidity in the mouth. Also the smell was extremely bad
Do you think only chewing B12 will help?

I think it depends on each one's body requirements, b12 liquid under the tongue is better than tablets (there's skin oils too), the one I'm using is far from ideal. The body needs to meet several cofactors as well to be able to use that b12. This is of course a theory of mine pertaining my current state.

[dianess]

Little update; I've interrupted NAC to see what would happen, at the same time I've started supplementing with iron and chewing the b12 tablets instead of just swallowing them. To my surprise I stayed bb free. One reason I could think of is b12 assimilation slightly increased enough to keep the minimum methylation cycle, in the meantime I must also have loaded enough molybdenum reserves to utilize that b12... I don't know, just speculating here but thought of informing you.

I'm so glad that you are bb free, god, that's really great to hear; this thread is really helpful
I have a question, do you have any diet? Is there something you dont eat etc?

[mauricio]

I'm so glad that you are bb free, god, that's really great to hear; this thread is really helpful
I have a question, do you have any diet? Is there something you dont eat etc?

thanks I'm veg but that didn't help before focusing on methylation-sulfate cycles. now I can eat all the onions I want)

[Ethanklein]

Little update; I've interrupted NAC to see what would happen, at the same time I've started supplementing with iron and chewing the b12 tablets instead of just swallowing them. To my surprise I stayed bb free. One reason I could think of is b12 assimilation slightly increased enough to keep the minimum methylation cycle, in the meantime I must also have loaded enough molybdenum reserves to utilize that b12... I don't know, just speculating here but thought of informing you.

Hi Mauricio! Congratulations on solving your puzzle! I have been lurking on these boards for years and tried 90% of the logical stuff to cure Nasal BB to no avail but have been following your posts recently and have enjoyed your methods and humor .

Mine is the Nasal type meaning it can cause nose rubbing/sniffing from a short distance without speaking or opening mouth and is often "room filling" over time, cars, public transport, social gatherings etc can be a nightmare. Interestingly though I generally have good oral hygiene, can speak close into peoples face w/little to no reaction in some circumstances, fine " wrist lick test" results and the lingual tonsil/back of tongue area is only caked in white in mornings before brushing. Also have constant PND, lump in the throat feeling and can hock & spit a big sticky glob out on command. Even after an extremely rigorous mouth brush and gargle where my mouth breath feels fresh to the blow, I sense "There are some kind of fumes coming from deeper in the system".

Considering this, I have pondered many possible theories over the years of the root cause from initially stomach, to tongue & tonsils, to nasopharynx area, Sibo, body producing PND to calm GERD etc but after many trial and errors, ENT appointments, CT scans of the sinus etc etc and research I arrived back at the stomach again as the root cause which probably contributes to many of the above symptoms that are mentioned across these forums.

The information in your posts make a lot of sense when combined with many other anecdotal posts on here from Raymonds breathing techniques to the more scientific gene focused stuff from nolab and others and basically I say all this to ask this;

It is quite hard to track, collate and reproduce your progress which I strongly believe would be effective for many, so would you please consider making a new forum post (or at worst even reply here) where you clearly lay out in atleast laymen level of detail, specific steps, your theory behind them, supplements and their efficacy, and timeframes in which to take them to achieve your results. I see mention of b12, molybdenum(potentially cause gout in high doses?), NAC(i just bought NAC) and I do appreciate you may not have an exact down packed methodology as much of it may of begun as theorycraft but any indepth explanation in one post of the stuff you believe to of worked and why could be life changing for many. Im in my mid 20's now and feel like ive wasted many of my best years to this issue already.

I appreciate your knowledge and I know you know many people here end up too attached to their initial theories and can be a little defensive when challenged but if you still stuck around for a little while and could help advise the rest of us and provide your analysis on this stomach pathology despite the differing opinions of others, it would really mean a lot and hopefully help those people too. Thanks and congrats again on being BB free, thats amazing!

[mauricio]

Hi Ethan, thanks for the message.
I wish I had cracked the puzzle, there's still CFS to overcome, as you'll see even from the small sample in the thread I've opened the two things can go hand in hand.
I had bb from nose as well, never realized it until I got a comment, you know when a friend shows you something on his cell phone and you get close, I always thought as long as I had my mouth shut I'd be fine and then he commented about me having had some drinks or something, which I hadn't of course. In my last months before taking care of it the fumes I was emanating were just ridiculous, could have spat fire had I lit a lighter before my mouth.
I was exposed to mercury in my dental amalgams, god knows the extent of the consequences that had on my health, I can tell you my bb started not too late after that at 13-14ish. So I've been clueless for more than 20 years, thinking it had oral cause, whether it be teeth or tongue. It's extremely easy to mistake the fumes we get with a smelly tongue cause we stick it out and we have a feel of such fumes. Like I said in the last months they were so powerful that it made no sense whatsoever for them to be caused by the tongue. The irony of it is I even had tongue bacteria-related bb ON TOP of the regular bb, but that was very easy to spot and a simple tongue swab and course of antibiotics made it go away. So people in other threads swearing they have some mysterious tongue bacteria... c'mon.
Back to me being clueless I had the tonsils taken out unfortunately, which again relates to poor functioning processes having our lymphs compromised. Just to give you an idea of stubbornness for months and months I was then convinced the bb was caused by sub-lingual tonsils which thank god the ETN said were ok and wouldn't remove them.
I'll spare you the whole hiatal hernia misdiagnosis details.

What clicked were transsulfuration pathway videos, SIBO as protective adaptation from not being able to provide my body with sulfate via the 'regular' ways. Glutathione is involved in the methylation cycle, the various supplements I'm taking to encourage it have had an effect on transsulfuration too and made sulfate production through the regular pathways possible again.
Interaction between supplements and the methylation cycle is rather complicated and that's what I've been dedicating myself to in the last weeks. So here I'm pointing to a direction, each one has to do his research in trying to understand what's not working.
I'm likely deficient in b12 consiering that chewing effect I observed, but that's just a small piece of the puzzle.
I'm supplementing molyb at suggested doses, I think it's important to try and get the whole picture other than the singular supplement.
I haven't even started mercury chelation yet, have to undergo a CT scan to see if there's any mercury left after unsafe removal... There's really a myriad of things to take into account, the CFS forum has a big load of infos on methylation.

[Ethanklein]

What clicked were transsulfuration pathway videos, SIBO as protective adaptation from not being able to provide my body with sulfate via the 'regular' ways. Glutathione is involved in the methylation cycle, the various supplements I'm taking to encourage it have had an effect on transsulfuration too and made sulfate production through the regular pathways possible again.
Interaction between supplements and the methylation cycle is rather complicated and that's what I've been dedicating myself to in the last weeks. So here I'm pointing to a direction, each one has to do his research in trying to understand what's not working.
I'm likely deficient in b12 consiering that chewing effect I observed, but that's just a small piece of the puzzle.
I'm supplementing molyb at suggested doses, I think it's important to try and get the whole picture other than the singular supplement.
I haven't even started mercury chelation yet, have to undergo a CT scan to see if there's any mercury left after unsafe removal... There's really a myriad of things to take into account, the CFS forum has a big load of infos on methylation.

Thanks for getting back Mauricio! Really fascinating information you added and the video you shared is very very illuminating. The protective adaption that guy mentions does sound very human-body like and in theory makes a lot of sense when I think about the fresh mouth and tongue after brushing but still getting the feeling and reactions that your exhaling some kind of malodour through the nose. It always puzzled me as even knowing I probably have 5 times the more complete oral hygiene routine than the people I would run into somehow my exhaled air seems worse than people who clearly dont make much effort and the yearly "did somebody fart" comment just really takes the biscuit I am sure this somewhat "rotten egg" odour is Hydrogen sulfide (still remember the smell from science class in school!) and this protective adaption theory tracks perfectly with that.

The screenshot of the video you shared mentions that sulfate process is also important for blood circulation, interesting as I dont suffer from CFS but I have always had really cold hands and feet which are the call cards of bad circulation. I wonder if the two could be linked and if there is any correlation with circulation too.

So if I could bounce some ideas off you in regards to the condition and how methylation fits into it? (I am a laymen in regards to how the GI tract functions, still getting to grips with this hypothesis so do pardon me if i inevitibly butcher this ) - What it sounds like you are describing you may of been afflicted by two seperate but closely linked issues, one being the poor methylation cycle which caused a largely general imbalance in the bodies production of glutathione and many other key molecules that contribute to normal bodily function, And then also secondly - hydrogen sulfide sibo which your body may have inflicted on itself in order to facilitate and boost the important intake of sulfate through your bloodstream or other means? Would that be an accurate summary?

So this Overgrowth of sulfur creating bacteria which I would assume by the name and from a quick google search began in the large then moved to the small intestine starts pumping out these powerful fumes (is that leaky gut syndrome?) and that sensation of "fumes from the deep" is what we are feeling? So potentially a hydrogen breath test at the doctors would come back as positive for this? I have previously theorized it could be a form of SIBO but I never got round to being tested before Covid kicked in and doctors closed in the UK. I have read that a course of rifaximin is effective in eliminating this form of hydrogen based SIBO, did you ever consider this before treating yourself?



When I began researching the methylation process it was difficult to understand and not conflate that with SIBO which I thought was a different issue but it seems that SIBO actually impacts the methylation cycle according to some. Just read this on Dr Jean-Marc Sobczyk website-

What happens when the beneficial gut bacteria become imbalanced? When the small intestine is overwhelmed with bacteria (diagnosed as Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth – SIBO) it can have major impacts on our methylation cycle and can make methylation problems (MTHFR mutations) much worse! Individuals with MTHFR mutations have defects in how well they recycle homocysteine and how well they convert folic acid and natural folates into Methylfolate (the active form)

Folic acid found in fortified food, processed food and Folic acid made by gut bacteria (very significant when you have SIBO) interfere with the intracellular absorption of the natural folate (found in your green leafy vegetables).
SIBO can be caused by antibiotics, proton-pump inhibitor drugs, chronic leaky gut, ileocecal valve dysfunction, and chronic stress.

Having a SIBO problem predisposes you towards having a methylation problem. If someone has SIBO, then treating SIBO and restoring gastro-intestinal health has to be the first place you start when dealing with a methylation issue.

Without enough activated folate in your cells, it is more difficult to heal, to repair your cells and to detox

To address SIBO, I believe you need to treat the gut AND support methylation (MTHFR enzyme activity) at the same time. Supporting methylation is achieved by Methylfolate and Vitamin B12 (usually MethylB12) supplementation; best taken as lozenges (Bypassing digestion) or as an injectable form (IM or IV)

That does support your B12 supplementation, have you looked at methyfolate?. Have you ever come across the forum posts from a user called "Mindspace"? It seems we are standin on his shoulder as he was onto this very same thought process years ago, I'm not sure how to link one of his topics here so I will just add something he also said

Guys mucus in the throat or PND is related to candida(mycotoxins) in the guts.And yes candida is the reason for bad breath but is not the underlying cause.That's why candida diet can't cure bad breath because is the consequence of b12 deficiency and MTHFR gene deficiency. Forget about it that bad breath problem is in the mouth.It's not.It's in the liver.B12 deficiency or MTHFR gene deficiency leads to high homocysteine levels.Do you know what is homocysteine?It's amino acid that produce sulphur and it's toxic for the body.It leads to serious problems in the body.Also low methylation in the body means high histamine.That's why so many people have problems with allergic reactions-rub noses,itchyness,coughing,sneezing etc.This is a serious problem and it's not that easy to heal yourself.

I think he has nailed something there, like so accurate, especially combining that with the video you posted. I have myself ran into other people and friends over the years who even I have had that almost allergic, nose rub reaction when being close to them so I know what that's like. It would be great if you would search "methylation" in the forum search bar so you can find his username and click on the number of his 'posts' so you see his entire post history, they pretty much sound like what you are describing and would be great to hear your thoughts after youve had a look through.

Thank you again for still being here and contributing, how are you doing at the moment aswell apart from the fatigue, are the fumes and BB still in check?

Cheers Mo