So my last post was about how I discovered tonsil stones even though I had my tonsils and adenoids removed as a child. Apparently, the tissue regenerated as I got older, complete with crypts and all. I began having fecal breath out of the blue one day and started spitting them out, some hard, some soft. Anyway, ever since, I have religiously scoped my "tonsils" with a. Flashlight and pocked around on them to see if anything else would come out. This relieved my "room filling" halitosis and the horrible taste.
However, I still get some mild smell in the morning and when my mouth is dry. the smell and taste are exactly the same which prompted me to research further. Well it turns out there are tonsils in the back of your tongue (lingual tonsils) and up in your pharynx (pharyngeal tonsils) which most of us I suspect do not explore or probe for stones since we can't see them. They can be cryptic and harbor stones and even become infected.
Please follow this link http://chestofbooks.com/health/anatomy/ ... xT94ZK9KK1 to learn about the pharyngeal tonsils and how to reach them with you finger. Lingual tonsils are pretty straight forward and much easier to palpate..see this link http://www.sleep-doctor.com/surgical-tr ... illectomy/
I have begun pressing and sliding my finger over these areas in the hope that I can extract some debris but have not actually seen any stones appear. The next trip is back to the ENT for a culture and possibly antibiotics if it is bacterial.
For you people who have taken Antibiotics and the smell has returned, this is because tonsillitis is usually viral and won't Respond to antibiotics. another potential option for crypt repair is coblation cryptolysis . http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 113236.htm
I am sorry we are all in this mess and I hope we can all find happiness one day. I am determined to get this under control and I will post again. [/img]
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NOTANYMORE
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Quick update
went to the ENT last week and saw the Physician's assistant. I explained to her the foul smell eminating from my throat every morning and the thick, dry mucus. I made it a point to remind her of my regrown cryptic tonsils and to pay particular attention to them as she investigated.
She did see the crypts and said they appear red and a little inflamed. i didn't say it out loud but thought "yeah, that's because of the not so gentle massage i give them 3 times a day." lol. Anyway, she gave me Antibiotics which she said may get rid of any possible tonsil infection or hidden stones. I'm pretty sure it won't fix anything but i am taking the 10 day course of Amoxicillin anyway for two reasons:
1) because i know my breath will be 100% clean for the duration and I need a week to just enjoy life like a normal person.
2) I want to make note of how it affects my throat and especially now that I am aware of the stones and have been actively trying to remove any substances from the tonsil tissue.
results after 6 days are as follows:
no bad breath
saliva is not nearly as thick but i still have a mucus coating on the throat in the morning. This is probably due to my LPR problems
LPR symptoms have improved during the day. not tastig food in the throat after eating and less mucus.
I am rinsing my throat and tonsils with 1/2 water, 1/2 peroxide 3 times a day as well. hopefully this will give me a little bit more time after the antibiotics wear off and my breath slowly returns to it's normal state.
The physician's assistant did mention that the tissue may need to be removed if this is a quailty of life issue (duh) and I have a follow up appointment in 2 weeks with the doctor. Personaly, I don't belive the doctor will be willing to remove the tissue as tonsil stones alone are not reason enough according reimbursement information I have read. If the option is given to me, however, I will take it. removal is the only way to know and if it doesn't work at least I can scratch one more thing off the list.
will post an update soon. Be strong.
went to the ENT last week and saw the Physician's assistant. I explained to her the foul smell eminating from my throat every morning and the thick, dry mucus. I made it a point to remind her of my regrown cryptic tonsils and to pay particular attention to them as she investigated.
She did see the crypts and said they appear red and a little inflamed. i didn't say it out loud but thought "yeah, that's because of the not so gentle massage i give them 3 times a day." lol. Anyway, she gave me Antibiotics which she said may get rid of any possible tonsil infection or hidden stones. I'm pretty sure it won't fix anything but i am taking the 10 day course of Amoxicillin anyway for two reasons:
1) because i know my breath will be 100% clean for the duration and I need a week to just enjoy life like a normal person.
2) I want to make note of how it affects my throat and especially now that I am aware of the stones and have been actively trying to remove any substances from the tonsil tissue.
results after 6 days are as follows:
no bad breath
saliva is not nearly as thick but i still have a mucus coating on the throat in the morning. This is probably due to my LPR problems
LPR symptoms have improved during the day. not tastig food in the throat after eating and less mucus.
I am rinsing my throat and tonsils with 1/2 water, 1/2 peroxide 3 times a day as well. hopefully this will give me a little bit more time after the antibiotics wear off and my breath slowly returns to it's normal state.
The physician's assistant did mention that the tissue may need to be removed if this is a quailty of life issue (duh) and I have a follow up appointment in 2 weeks with the doctor. Personaly, I don't belive the doctor will be willing to remove the tissue as tonsil stones alone are not reason enough according reimbursement information I have read. If the option is given to me, however, I will take it. removal is the only way to know and if it doesn't work at least I can scratch one more thing off the list.
will post an update soon. Be strong.
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NOTANYMORE
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Also, I would like to dedicate this thread to Halitosux. When I began posting here years ago, he was always willing to debate, enlighten, and give a fair and honest view, even if it totaly contradicted what I was arguing. This trend continues even today. Although he has improved his situation "almost 90%" by his own guestimation, he still hangs around and helps all of us. This forum and indeed every one who has had the fortune to improve their own situation because of any one of his multiple posts, owes him a debt of gratitude for his selflessness.
Halitosux, thank you. I don't know you and we may never meet but I am forever gratefull for what you do here.
And in that same vein, I will post all of my medical updates and procedures in this thread so that maybe someone out there can connect their own dots.
Halitosux, thank you. I don't know you and we may never meet but I am forever gratefull for what you do here.
And in that same vein, I will post all of my medical updates and procedures in this thread so that maybe someone out there can connect their own dots.
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halitosisux
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Thanks for your kind words! Yes please keep us updated on your progress and good luck with what you're trying!
I really want learn as much as possible and empower myself to know as much as I can about something which managed to have so much control over me. I'm grateful to anyone who has ever been willing to have discussions with me. I'm in a rush and only have a few mins, but once again ty!
I really want learn as much as possible and empower myself to know as much as I can about something which managed to have so much control over me. I'm grateful to anyone who has ever been willing to have discussions with me. I'm in a rush and only have a few mins, but once again ty!
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NOTANYMORE
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cheers!
This morning I had a barium swallow and Upper GI study. I drank some barium and the doctor watched as it went down the throat and into my stomach.
Results: Normal swallow but severe reflux. When he layed the table down, the barium traveled from the stomach, back up into the esophagus nearly 3/4 of the way to my larynx. This doesn't suprise me as I have done this study before with similar results.
Also, a couple weeks ago I had an esophageal manomatry test which measures the power and ability of the esophageal muscles to propel food down into the stomach. The results of that test were that the swallow was normal but lower esophageal sphincter was not functioning properly and unable to keep the liquid in the stomach.
These tests are for the GI doctor to determine if I am a candidate for surgery. I have taken Max dose PPI's for years and the reflux problems are only getting worse. This is a structural defect and can only be rectified by surgery.
Next, I am supposed to have the "smart pill" test which will monitor PH levels and will assess transit time through the GI tract.
This morning I had a barium swallow and Upper GI study. I drank some barium and the doctor watched as it went down the throat and into my stomach.
Results: Normal swallow but severe reflux. When he layed the table down, the barium traveled from the stomach, back up into the esophagus nearly 3/4 of the way to my larynx. This doesn't suprise me as I have done this study before with similar results.
Also, a couple weeks ago I had an esophageal manomatry test which measures the power and ability of the esophageal muscles to propel food down into the stomach. The results of that test were that the swallow was normal but lower esophageal sphincter was not functioning properly and unable to keep the liquid in the stomach.
These tests are for the GI doctor to determine if I am a candidate for surgery. I have taken Max dose PPI's for years and the reflux problems are only getting worse. This is a structural defect and can only be rectified by surgery.
Next, I am supposed to have the "smart pill" test which will monitor PH levels and will assess transit time through the GI tract.
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halitosisux
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NOTANYMORE
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I have mentioned to him that I am having some BB and that my oral health is excellent with regards to teeth and gums. He just gave me a knowing look and nod but we never realy dicussed it in depth.
The PND is non existent as long as I take my medications or don't drink caffeine (which for me, is the worst offender). That being said, In the morning I can see thick mucus in the Nasopharynx and all down the throat. I seem to have plenty of saliva on the tongue and mouth but my throat is super dry. It could be that the mucus is forming to protect the delicate structures from irritation and I could have a little PND as well due to sinus irritation although I can't feel any PND. The ENT looks in my nose with a camera every time I go and always says my sinuses look good. I have also had one CT scan of thhe sinuses and a CT neck with contrast because I have a swollen lymph node (which I believe is either from the tonsils or the GERD) but they were unremarkable.
So my theory is this; I am refluxing several times a day which is irritating the throat, lungs, larynx, sinuses and oral cavity. This irritation is causing my body to respond by creating loads of dense mucus in all these areas which is exactly what the body should do. The problem is that because of this mucus, I get tonsil stones, chronic cough after eating and the need to constantly cleat mucus from my throat. The real problem for me is that, when the mucus drys, i get halitosis. Add tonsil stones to all this and it's a can't win situation.
I have read on a GERD surgery forum that a few people have seen all reflux symptoms dissapear after surgery, and particularly the mucus symptom. Keep in mind that I need the surgery anyway and this isn't to fix halitosis but I'm hoping that if the mucus subsides, so does the halitosis (assuming I don't have stones. But i'm working on that too
).
The PND is non existent as long as I take my medications or don't drink caffeine (which for me, is the worst offender). That being said, In the morning I can see thick mucus in the Nasopharynx and all down the throat. I seem to have plenty of saliva on the tongue and mouth but my throat is super dry. It could be that the mucus is forming to protect the delicate structures from irritation and I could have a little PND as well due to sinus irritation although I can't feel any PND. The ENT looks in my nose with a camera every time I go and always says my sinuses look good. I have also had one CT scan of thhe sinuses and a CT neck with contrast because I have a swollen lymph node (which I believe is either from the tonsils or the GERD) but they were unremarkable.
So my theory is this; I am refluxing several times a day which is irritating the throat, lungs, larynx, sinuses and oral cavity. This irritation is causing my body to respond by creating loads of dense mucus in all these areas which is exactly what the body should do. The problem is that because of this mucus, I get tonsil stones, chronic cough after eating and the need to constantly cleat mucus from my throat. The real problem for me is that, when the mucus drys, i get halitosis. Add tonsil stones to all this and it's a can't win situation.
I have read on a GERD surgery forum that a few people have seen all reflux symptoms dissapear after surgery, and particularly the mucus symptom. Keep in mind that I need the surgery anyway and this isn't to fix halitosis but I'm hoping that if the mucus subsides, so does the halitosis (assuming I don't have stones. But i'm working on that too
).
NOTANYMORE, please do an extensive research about the side effects of that operation before going through with it. There are many people who got rid of reflux issues, but there are also some that showed no progress and having to live with the side effects. Still, finding out about the disfunction of the LES is a breakthrough. Now you know a defect in your body which probably is the cause of your bad breath. Even if it's not, fixing this issue will increase your quality of life. Wish you the best.
As for me, I always have a burning sensation in my throat and always thought the main reason for it was the reflux. I went to a gastroenterologist professor, he wanted me to have barium swallow test and ph meter test.
Ph meter showed that I had only 2 mild refluxes in 24 hours, both happened while I was not lying down. Barium swallow test showed that the contents of my stomach did not go up to my throat even when my stomach is elevated.
So it's either one of these:
- Even though barium did not go up which is dense, other fluids can. I have read that esophagus is very sensitive to acid, so one reflux a day might be sufficient to cause damage.
- Deviated septum > PND > chronic sore throat which I mistake for reflux damage.
As for me, I always have a burning sensation in my throat and always thought the main reason for it was the reflux. I went to a gastroenterologist professor, he wanted me to have barium swallow test and ph meter test.
Ph meter showed that I had only 2 mild refluxes in 24 hours, both happened while I was not lying down. Barium swallow test showed that the contents of my stomach did not go up to my throat even when my stomach is elevated.
So it's either one of these:
- Even though barium did not go up which is dense, other fluids can. I have read that esophagus is very sensitive to acid, so one reflux a day might be sufficient to cause damage.
- Deviated septum > PND > chronic sore throat which I mistake for reflux damage.
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halitosisux
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Have the gases that would rise up into your throat and nasopharynx from having a LES dysfunction, been considered? I think this is the main mechanism for "silent reflux", where acidic liquids do not themselves rise much into the throat, but that the gases do, and they go right up into the sinuses.
Think about when you burp when drinking Coca Cola, and the gas goes up into the nose, it actually stings. That's what can happen in silent reflux apparently (I say apparently, because there is no clear way to diagnose silent reflux, only by some of the signs and symptoms it causes).
Would such gases be detectable on a Ph meter? Could be worth asking the GI doctor.
One thing I always wake up with is a very sore throat that quickly clears once I hack out the mucus from my throat. I've never known why this happens. I always assumed it was bacterial toxins that had been stagnating. I wonder sometimes if it's acid vapour damage.
Think about when you burp when drinking Coca Cola, and the gas goes up into the nose, it actually stings. That's what can happen in silent reflux apparently (I say apparently, because there is no clear way to diagnose silent reflux, only by some of the signs and symptoms it causes).
Would such gases be detectable on a Ph meter? Could be worth asking the GI doctor.
One thing I always wake up with is a very sore throat that quickly clears once I hack out the mucus from my throat. I've never known why this happens. I always assumed it was bacterial toxins that had been stagnating. I wonder sometimes if it's acid vapour damage.
Last edited by halitosisux on Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NOTANYMORE
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Thank you for the post COMPOR.
I was hesitant for years to try and fix the reflux with anything other than diet and medication. Unfortunatly, the problem is getting worse and is at times, extremely difficult to live with. No medication is going to help when the stuff I just ate decides to travel all the way back up my throat. I hear what you are saying about the side effects of surgery. To be honest, I have put off having any surgery for years because of the things I have read online. However, I am at the point where I believe the benefits can outweigh the risks and would love to be off the mega doses of PPI medication. I am realy hoping to be a candidate for the TIF procedure as the thought of a nissen is scarry to me.
you know, I had burning in my mouth and tongue for a while as well. The Nexium relieves me of that as well as the canker sores I used to get from the irritation. Good luck with your situation. A deviated septum shouldn't be to hard to fix if you decide to go that route. Do you still have your tonsils?
I was hesitant for years to try and fix the reflux with anything other than diet and medication. Unfortunatly, the problem is getting worse and is at times, extremely difficult to live with. No medication is going to help when the stuff I just ate decides to travel all the way back up my throat. I hear what you are saying about the side effects of surgery. To be honest, I have put off having any surgery for years because of the things I have read online. However, I am at the point where I believe the benefits can outweigh the risks and would love to be off the mega doses of PPI medication. I am realy hoping to be a candidate for the TIF procedure as the thought of a nissen is scarry to me.
you know, I had burning in my mouth and tongue for a while as well. The Nexium relieves me of that as well as the canker sores I used to get from the irritation. Good luck with your situation. A deviated septum shouldn't be to hard to fix if you decide to go that route. Do you still have your tonsils?
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NOTANYMORE
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@Halitosux. They have a new PH monitor for ENT's. A catheter is thread through your nose with a PH probe on the end. This one is left at the level of the UES (upper esophageal sphincter) and monitors LPR. This is not a common test from what I understand because like you said, LPR is just gases reaching high into the mouth/sinuses/larynx and is a manifestation of GERD. It would reason that if you had a working LES with no herniation or motility problems, than you would not have LPR. Doctors will treat your symptoms almost the same as GERD anyway with maybe a little higher dose of PPI and H2 medication and for longer.
Also, I have read that above the UES, you need as little as 4 acid exposures in one day to cause tissue damage.
Also, I have read that above the UES, you need as little as 4 acid exposures in one day to cause tissue damage.
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halitosisux
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Thanks for the reply. It does make you think, that something that can so easily be happening to anyone, perhaps even without noticing, could give rise to abnormal levels of mucus production, leading to all the other symptoms we're all so familiar with, such as tonsil stones and horrible tastes and bad smelling gunk on the back of the tongue.
We recently had a report of a complete cure of someone taking omeprazole. In the past we've seen the same with Zantac.
I might go to my doctor to get some omeprazole, to try some experiments with. I had triple therapy for helicobacter about 15 years ago and it was just a week course and I'm sure omeprazole was the PPI given. This was not enough time to see if it reduced my PND, but I'd like to try a longer course to see if it can reduce the PND. My throat has always looked inflamed and angry and I remember once going to the doctor for an unrelated reason and he looked in my ears and said I had a really bad case of otitis media - and I had no idea. In my teens I had to have my ears syringed several times because they became blocked with ear wax. My voice is always "cutting out" as though I've lost my voice. Asthma too, although it's greatly improved in recent years.
I had ulcer symptoms about 20 years ago, which lasted for about 5 years. Excruciating pain in the centre of my abdomen whenever I ate or drank anything acidic. It probably was an ulcer, but it wasn't caused by helicobacter, because after the triple therapy I demanded to have further tests to check for helicobacter, and I was referred for an endoscopy.I also had the blood test. All negative. I think it may have been caused by either smoking at the time, or chewing gum all day long.
We recently had a report of a complete cure of someone taking omeprazole. In the past we've seen the same with Zantac.
I might go to my doctor to get some omeprazole, to try some experiments with. I had triple therapy for helicobacter about 15 years ago and it was just a week course and I'm sure omeprazole was the PPI given. This was not enough time to see if it reduced my PND, but I'd like to try a longer course to see if it can reduce the PND. My throat has always looked inflamed and angry and I remember once going to the doctor for an unrelated reason and he looked in my ears and said I had a really bad case of otitis media - and I had no idea. In my teens I had to have my ears syringed several times because they became blocked with ear wax. My voice is always "cutting out" as though I've lost my voice. Asthma too, although it's greatly improved in recent years.
I had ulcer symptoms about 20 years ago, which lasted for about 5 years. Excruciating pain in the centre of my abdomen whenever I ate or drank anything acidic. It probably was an ulcer, but it wasn't caused by helicobacter, because after the triple therapy I demanded to have further tests to check for helicobacter, and I was referred for an endoscopy.I also had the blood test. All negative. I think it may have been caused by either smoking at the time, or chewing gum all day long.
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NOTANYMORE
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3 things come to mind while reading your post.
1) H.Pylori tests can be innacurate. Also, if you were tested years ago, perhaps the tests have gotten better since then.
2) Ulcers are either caused by H.Pylori, excess use of anti-inflammatory drugs or gastrinoma which is a tumor. So, you could pretty easily rule 2 of these out. 80% of stomach ulcers are caused by H.pylori. http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorder ... ter-pylori
3) 20% are not cured with the first treatment. A second round with a longer duration of a minimum 14 days is required. http://www.uptodate.com/contents/helico ... or=H14#H14. Also, H.pylori has gotten more resistant to antibiotics and doctors are starting to treat it more aggressively.
I get an Esophageal scope every 3 years and they biopsy for H.Pylori but it always comes back negative as well. Prior to any surgery, I will demand treatment even if tests are negative just to see what happens. Plenty of folks on other forums have had negative tests and were given treatement anyway and were cured. http://www.topix.com/forum/health/helic ... 2LDU0MQ/p3
Interestingly, a lot of the symptoms of H.Pylori present the same LPR or GERD.
1) H.Pylori tests can be innacurate. Also, if you were tested years ago, perhaps the tests have gotten better since then.
2) Ulcers are either caused by H.Pylori, excess use of anti-inflammatory drugs or gastrinoma which is a tumor. So, you could pretty easily rule 2 of these out. 80% of stomach ulcers are caused by H.pylori. http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorder ... ter-pylori
3) 20% are not cured with the first treatment. A second round with a longer duration of a minimum 14 days is required. http://www.uptodate.com/contents/helico ... or=H14#H14. Also, H.pylori has gotten more resistant to antibiotics and doctors are starting to treat it more aggressively.
I get an Esophageal scope every 3 years and they biopsy for H.Pylori but it always comes back negative as well. Prior to any surgery, I will demand treatment even if tests are negative just to see what happens. Plenty of folks on other forums have had negative tests and were given treatement anyway and were cured. http://www.topix.com/forum/health/helic ... 2LDU0MQ/p3
Interestingly, a lot of the symptoms of H.Pylori present the same LPR or GERD.
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halitosisux
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@NOTANYMORE
Sometimes I struggle to remember the exact details of what I went through, but basically, I remember reading about possible links between h.pylori and BB. I'd already had the symptoms of an ulcer for a few years.
So I went to see my doctor about it, and without any fuss he prescribed me an antibiotic triple therapy, without any testing for h.pylori. It didn't get rid of my BB. So I then went back and asked for a blood test. This came out negative (as you probably know, a negative blood result can be totally relied on, unlike a positive test). When I got the news over the phone I nearly had a nervous breakdown. I refused to accept it and went back to my doctor in a lot of distress and begged for another stronger antibiotic therapy. He refused, and offered to rule it out with an endoscopy. I Was told there was no sign of an ulcer or scarring, no sign of gastritis and my esophagus was fine.
There have been detailed studies to try to find out so why many people with BB have found themselves cured after taking the antibiotic therapy for h.pylori. Nothing was concluded in this study. Just to add to the confusion, some people were cured of their BB, even though the h.pylori was not eradicated. This means that it's likely that the therapy acted elsewhere in the body - possibly the gut flora - but maybe a site of chronic infection somewhere, like the sinuses or the teeth/gums.
Sometimes I struggle to remember the exact details of what I went through, but basically, I remember reading about possible links between h.pylori and BB. I'd already had the symptoms of an ulcer for a few years.
So I went to see my doctor about it, and without any fuss he prescribed me an antibiotic triple therapy, without any testing for h.pylori. It didn't get rid of my BB. So I then went back and asked for a blood test. This came out negative (as you probably know, a negative blood result can be totally relied on, unlike a positive test). When I got the news over the phone I nearly had a nervous breakdown. I refused to accept it and went back to my doctor in a lot of distress and begged for another stronger antibiotic therapy. He refused, and offered to rule it out with an endoscopy. I Was told there was no sign of an ulcer or scarring, no sign of gastritis and my esophagus was fine.
There have been detailed studies to try to find out so why many people with BB have found themselves cured after taking the antibiotic therapy for h.pylori. Nothing was concluded in this study. Just to add to the confusion, some people were cured of their BB, even though the h.pylori was not eradicated. This means that it's likely that the therapy acted elsewhere in the body - possibly the gut flora - but maybe a site of chronic infection somewhere, like the sinuses or the teeth/gums.
