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Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

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ttylxman2
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Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:43 pm
Gender: Male - Male
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Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby ttylxman2 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:36 am

I've found myself extremely depressed and full of regret lately. The majority of my youth has already passed me by. I've spent 10's of thousands on treatments, surgeries, doctor visits at home and abroad, and tried everything posted here with no lasting results. I'm so maladjusted and out of touch with reality at this point that I am desperate enough to try anything.

Below is my last resort treatment plan that I am about to undergo. I am posting it here mostly to organize my own thoughts, but I absolutely appreciate and encourage any feedback, advice or warnings. I've considered doing this for years after having read several reports of heavy antibiotic use curing chronic BB, but never tried it because of the risks and the difficulty of obtaining the required drugs and in the required amounts. In hindsight, I feel extremely stupid for not having done this before I'd already wasted so much time. The risks seem entirely negligible compared to the emotional pain and isolation I've gone through and all the wasted years that will never come back to me. Not to even mention the rough uncharted path to becoming "normal" that lies ahead of this curse.

Disclaimer:
I am not giving medical advice or recommending anyone to follow what I am about to post. There are major risks involved beyond the obvious of just completely trashing your body's bacterial balance. There are serious potential side effects including neural toxicity, liver damage, or even allergic reactions leading to anaphylactic shock. Don't take any drugs that weren't prescribed to you by a doctor.

I am basing everything on the assumption that my BB is caused by my chronic sinusitis, resulting in either
A) mucous to putrify in the sinuses and drip into the throat
or
B) post nasal drip feeding bad bacteria originating in the mouth, either from unbalanced flora or some hidden source of infection such as an abscess

The drugs below were selected for a combined attack on dental abscesses, sinusitis and any gut related issues. Interestingly, this is nearly the same triple therapy used for h. pylori infections. However, the duration is several times longer. I tested negative, but if there's something going on down there then this should take care of it.

I am starting a 6 week treatment consisting of:
Amoxicillin + Clavulanic Acid - 500mg/125mg three times daily
    Also known as Augmentin. Well tolerated & extremely popular. Moderate spectrum antibiotic. First line of defense against sinusitis
Metronidazole - 400mg three times daily - discontinue after 2 weeks
    Also known as Flagyl. Rather harsh drug with many side effects & an FDA issued cancer warning. Eliminates anaerobic bacteria. Great for dental abscesses and gut issues
Fluconazole - 100mg orally every 72 hours then 100mg once daily for the final week
    Anti-fungal that prevents yeast/fungal overgrowth from antibiotic use
Oral probiotics - 1 lozenge 3x daily in final week and for 2 weeks after
    Anything containing high quantities of BlisK12 or S. Salivarius
    Necessary to give good bacteria a head start once the antibiotics wear off
    Will NOT swallow or an overgrowth of oral bacteria may occur in gut
    Example Product: NOW OralBiotic Blis K12
Intestinal probiotics
    25+ Billion multi-strain for maximum effectiveness. Probiotic yogurts too
    Probiotic use while on antibiotics has been proven to reduce side effects and will help regenerate a healthy flora if taken afterwards as well
    Example Product: NOW Probiotic-10 25 Billion
Sinus Decongestants
    Sinuses must remain open to allow drainage of any infected mucous
    Example Products: Pseudoephedrine (Sudafed), Caffeine Pills
Sinus Rinses
    Standard flip-turn sinus flush performed at least once daily
    Optionally may add a few drops of Oregano oil or GSE as an additional topical antibacterial & antifungal
Anti-Inflammatory Diet
    Must continue eating healthy and keep sugars to a minimum. Crucial to eat clean while flora is being reset
Prebiotics

I will begin next week once I have all the supplies in hand. Hoping at the very least I will get to enjoy my first 6 weeks without halitosis since childhood. The true test is whether or not it remains cleared up which is a nail biting few months away.

Wish me luck, and keep your chins up! Someday we'll find our cure. We have to believe that.




WhiteCat
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Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby WhiteCat » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:19 am

Good luck with everything!

:)

I’m hoping to hear about positive results.

gotshot26
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Posts: 14
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Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby gotshot26 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:36 am

Good luck.

Ray Kurzweil did something similar to this and cured himself of diabetes.

gotshot26
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Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby gotshot26 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:17 am

Did you also try fecal transplant?

ttylxman2
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Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:43 pm
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Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby ttylxman2 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:44 am

gotshot26 wrote:Did you also try fecal transplant?

OK, OK so that's one thing I haven't tried.

It seems like my problem is oral or sinus related based on all my symptoms and what gives me relief.

A much smarter idea for my needs may be following up this treatment with a long kissing session with someone who never gets cavities or bad breath. Voila! Transplant of a healthy oral flora. Of course it's never that simple but who hasn't heard stories of people giving others bad breath with a kiss. I don't think it could hurt.


WhiteCat
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Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:17 pm
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Australia

Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby WhiteCat » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:04 am

I’ve passionately kissed my share of men with clear breath.

It does nothing to help, not that that’s why I was doing it ;)

No one would have this problem if the solution was as basic as spittle transfer.

ttylxman2
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Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:43 pm
Gender: Male - Male
Canada

Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby ttylxman2 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:41 am

WhiteCat wrote:I’ve passionately kissed my share of men with clear breath.

It does nothing to help, not that that’s why I was doing it ;)

No one would have this problem if the solution was as basic as spittle transfer.


Did you do it while finishing up a 6 week course of heavy antibiotics leaving you with practically zero existing oral flora to compete against any foreign bacteria?

Assuming the environment in your mouth is suitable for the other person's bacteria then I don't see why it wouldn't have some sort of transplant effect.

I'd try it for sure.

ttylxman2
Junior
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:43 pm
Gender: Male - Male
Canada

Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby ttylxman2 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:54 am

Found this article about a guy who took antibiotics then did a fecal transplant by swallowing gelatin pills of his friend's poop:

https://www.theverge.com/2016/5/4/11581 ... ibs-c-diff

Very interesting, especially how there seems to be signs of the transplants positively affecting far more than just the gut.

Crazy how far we go to cure ourselves of things medical science hasn't quite caught up to yet.

WhiteCat
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:17 pm
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Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby WhiteCat » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:20 am

ttylxman2 wrote:
WhiteCat wrote:I’ve passionately kissed my share of men with clear breath.

It does nothing to help, not that that’s why I was doing it ;)

No one would have this problem if the solution was as basic as spittle transfer.


Did you do it while finishing up a 6 week course of heavy antibiotics leaving you with practically zero existing oral flora to compete against any foreign bacteria?

Assuming the environment in your mouth is suitable for the other person's bacteria then I don't see why it wouldn't have some sort of transplant effect.

I'd try it for sure.


Naw, antibiotics do squat for me.

I encourage kissing if you have a willing saliva donor though. Kissing is one of the great pleasures in life that I've been robbed of. :cry:

Maybe it will help to 'reset' your flora, who knows?

I don't know enough about oral microbiology, or anything really...

Lifelongsufferer
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Posts: 56
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Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby Lifelongsufferer » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:31 am

I know how desperate you feel right now, but I need to tell you that I did something similar and it didn’t work for me. I would hate for you to go through the same disappointment that I did.

I went on a course of metronidazole, amoxicillin and clarithromycin for 2 weeks. I also used the BLISK12 probiotics and it worked for a couple of weeks but then returned. I later learnt that the BLIS K12 and M13 probiotics are unable to COLONISE our mouths, which means they can never be a permanent solution. (Of course, more money for the people that make it!)

However, if your life is a bad as mine was then I don’t begrudge you a few weeks of normality. It actually helped me to continue to have some hope. It’s important though that you’re aware of how negatively your mental health may be affected by the realisation that you’re not cured (if that is the case)

Just some food for thought. I hope you will keep us updated.
22 UK

Tonsils/adenoids removed
FESS surgery
Visited 3+ ENTs & 2 gastros.
Diagnosed w/ SIBO (hydrogen test)
Peroxide, metronidazole and Sodium Hypochlorite all worked for 2 weeks.

FODMAP, vegan and candida diet tried. Slight improvement.

Summerside
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Posts: 130
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 10:06 pm
Location: Edmonton
Gender: Female - Female
Canada

Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby Summerside » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:55 pm

ttylxman2 wrote:I've found myself extremely depressed and full of regret lately. The majority of my youth has already passed me by. I've spent 10's of thousands on treatments, surgeries, doctor visits at home and abroad, and tried everything posted here with no lasting results. I'm so maladjusted and out of touch with reality at this point that I am desperate enough to try anything.

Below is my last resort treatment plan that I am about to undergo. I am posting it here mostly to organize my own thoughts, but I absolutely appreciate and encourage any feedback, advice or warnings. I've considered doing this for years after having read several reports of heavy antibiotic use curing chronic BB, but never tried it because of the risks and the difficulty of obtaining the required drugs and in the required amounts. In hindsight, I feel extremely stupid for not having done this before I'd already wasted so much time. The risks seem entirely negligible compared to the emotional pain and isolation I've gone through and all the wasted years that will never come back to me. Not to even mention the rough uncharted path to becoming "normal" that lies ahead of this curse.

Disclaimer:
I am not giving medical advice or recommending anyone to follow what I am about to post. There are major risks involved beyond the obvious of just completely trashing your body's bacterial balance. There are serious potential side effects including neural toxicity, liver damage, or even allergic reactions leading to anaphylactic shock. Don't take any drugs that weren't prescribed to you by a doctor.

I am basing everything on the assumption that my BB is caused by my chronic sinusitis, resulting in either
A) mucous to putrify in the sinuses and drip into the throat
or
B) post nasal drip feeding bad bacteria originating in the mouth, either from unbalanced flora or some hidden source of infection such as an abscess

The drugs below were selected for a combined attack on dental abscesses, sinusitis and any gut related issues. Interestingly, this is nearly the same triple therapy used for h. pylori infections. However, the duration is several times longer. I tested negative, but if there's something going on down there then this should take care of it.

I am starting a 6 week treatment consisting of:
Amoxicillin + Clavulanic Acid - 500mg/125mg three times daily
    Also known as Augmentin. Well tolerated & extremely popular. Moderate spectrum antibiotic. First line of defense against sinusitis
Metronidazole - 400mg three times daily - discontinue after 2 weeks
    Also known as Flagyl. Rather harsh drug with many side effects & an FDA issued cancer warning. Eliminates anaerobic bacteria. Great for dental abscesses and gut issues
Fluconazole - 100mg orally every 72 hours then 100mg once daily for the final week
    Anti-fungal that prevents yeast/fungal overgrowth from antibiotic use
Oral probiotics - 1 lozenge 3x daily in final week and for 2 weeks after
    Anything containing high quantities of BlisK12 or S. Salivarius
    Necessary to give good bacteria a head start once the antibiotics wear off
    Will NOT swallow or an overgrowth of oral bacteria may occur in gut
    Example Product: NOW OralBiotic Blis K12
Intestinal probiotics
    25+ Billion multi-strain for maximum effectiveness. Probiotic yogurts too
    Probiotic use while on antibiotics has been proven to reduce side effects and will help regenerate a healthy flora if taken afterwards as well
    Example Product: NOW Probiotic-10 25 Billion
Sinus Decongestants
    Sinuses must remain open to allow drainage of any infected mucous
    Example Products: Pseudoephedrine (Sudafed), Caffeine Pills
Sinus Rinses
    Standard flip-turn sinus flush performed at least once daily
    Optionally may add a few drops of Oregano oil or GSE as an additional topical antibacterial & antifungal
Anti-Inflammatory Diet
    Must continue eating healthy and keep sugars to a minimum. Crucial to eat clean while flora is being reset
Prebiotics

I will begin next week once I have all the supplies in hand. Hoping at the very least I will get to enjoy my first 6 weeks without halitosis since childhood. The true test is whether or not it remains cleared up which is a nail biting few months away.

Wish me luck, and keep your chins up! Someday we'll find our cure. We have to believe that.


Hello, sorry I have a quick question. How do you do the flip sinus rinse? I am back trying the dilluted bleech.
So I held my head way back looking at the ceiling and put some of the solution in each nostril. The solition ran down my throat right away. Which was scary, its bleech!. Then I held my nostrils close put my head between my legs for a while.
Back up nothing came out. What did I do wrong? Thank you!!

Summerside
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Posts: 130
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 10:06 pm
Location: Edmonton
Gender: Female - Female
Canada

Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby Summerside » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:05 pm

WhiteCat wrote:
ttylxman2 wrote:
WhiteCat wrote:I’ve passionately kissed my share of men with clear breath.

It does nothing to help, not that that’s why I was doing it ;)

No one would have this problem if the solution was as basic as spittle transfer.


Did you do it while finishing up a 6 week course of heavy antibiotics leaving you with practically zero existing oral flora to compete against any foreign bacteria?

Assuming the environment in your mouth is suitable for the other person's bacteria then I don't see why it wouldn't have some sort of transplant effect.

I'd try it for sure.


Naw, antibiotics do squat for me.

I encourage kissing if you have a willing saliva donor though. Kissing is one of the great pleasures in life that I've been robbed of. :cry:

Maybe it will help to 'reset' your flora, who knows?

I don't know enough about oral microbiology, or anything really...


Thats an interesting thought...
I am single again and recently had sort of a one night stand. Even though I was scared because of my bb. I havent heard from him since then. So this is my test. I didnt get a reaction from him. If I dont hear from him again I still really have bb
Could be that he is just not interested agsin, but i would blame bt on my bb

Summerside
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Posts: 130
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 10:06 pm
Location: Edmonton
Gender: Female - Female
Canada

Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby Summerside » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:09 pm

WhiteCat wrote:I’ve passionately kissed my share of men with clear breath.

It does nothing to help, not that that’s why I was doing it ;)

No one would have this problem if the solution was as basic as spittle transfer.


I doubt it too.
Something is changing with my bb.
I did a bad bleech sinus rinse and some solution ran down my throat. Very scary.
But today the bad taste is gone and I difnt get a reaction from my son ladt night while watching a movie very close.
Also am gluten free right now and drinkind diatomaceous earth.

Fingers crossed

ttylxman2
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Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:43 pm
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Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby ttylxman2 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:42 pm

Lifelongsufferer wrote:I know how desperate you feel right now, but I need to tell you that I did something similar and it didn’t work for me. I would hate for you to go through the same disappointment that I did.

I went on a course of metronidazole, amoxicillin and clarithromycin for 2 weeks. I also used the BLISK12 probiotics and it worked for a couple of weeks but then returned. I later learnt that the BLIS K12 and M13 probiotics are unable to COLONISE our mouths, which means they can never be a permanent solution. (Of course, more money for the people that make it!)

However, if your life is a bad as mine was then I don’t begrudge you a few weeks of normality. It actually helped me to continue to have some hope. It’s important though that you’re aware of how negatively your mental health may be affected by the realisation that you’re not cured (if that is the case)

Just some food for thought. I hope you will keep us updated.


Thanks for the feedback!

I understand there is a chance this won't work and I have accepted that from the start. After 1000 false hopes I am pretty much a tank at taking disappointment. It'll still be a blow, but what isn't these days.

I have a few counter points however.. First is that 2 weeks is not long enough and you also didn't mention your dosages. Sinusitis can take up to 2 months to cure with antibiotics and I definitely have it, although whether mine is of bacterial origin or not is unknown. I am prepared to extend my treatment if I feel my sinus problems are still improving when the 6 weeks come to an end.

Second, the decongestants and the sinus flushing are just as important as the antibiotics in curing sinus problems and consequently the PND which definitely exacerbates my BB if not outright causes it. I believe if one were to only follow part of this plan that they would not resolve their problem permanently.

We also likely have completely different sources of BB. Our symptoms aren't exactly the same so I am definitely not discouraged from trying this, and if it fails, ruling it out as a cure.

What you were saying about oral probiotics being unable to colonize is interesting and I've heard it before, and certainly reflects my own use over the years. I can't find any literature that debunks them but I did find this:

09.10.14 - The research was carried out in a collaboration between Western University and the developer of the probiotic, BLIS Technologies Ltd, and demonstrated that daily dosing with a single lozenge of BLIS M18 resulted in a greater than 80% (100 million probiotic/lozenge) and 90% (1 billion probiotic/lozenge), respectively, of individuals (healthy young adults) having detectable levels of the probiotic after 7 days administration. This is a marked improvement over previous BLIS M18 research using an earlier formulation (3.6 billion probiotic/lozenge), in which only 22% of school children had detectable salivary levels of BLIS M18 following three months of twice daily consumption.

https://www.nutraceuticalsworld.com/iss ... -efficacy/

Not BLIS K12 but maybe they have changed their K12 formulation to be more effective at colonizing as well. I will be ordering both K12 and M18 directly from BLIS Technologies just to make sure I'm using the latest and greatest. Beyond that there's not much we can do but try what we have available to us.

Lifelongsufferer
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Re: Last Resort Treatment [LONG POST]

Postby Lifelongsufferer » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:46 pm

You may well be right, in fact I hope you are! The only other thing I would add is that I had always read that antibiotics aren’t effective at curing accrue sinusitis as there is no blood in the sinuses to carry the antibiotics to them.

Do you think a flip turn sinus flush containing antibiotics would be more effective, if it is the sinuses that are the problem? Just throwing an idea out there.

I, myself, believe that the reason antibiotics only work temporarily for us is because our natural oral flora is restored soon after. I read that the human oral microbiole is very resistant - as we are constantly eating so being exposed to new bacteria etc and it remains the same. My hope is now pinned on the Oral Microbiota Transplant becoming a reality.
22 UK

Tonsils/adenoids removed
FESS surgery
Visited 3+ ENTs & 2 gastros.
Diagnosed w/ SIBO (hydrogen test)
Peroxide, metronidazole and Sodium Hypochlorite all worked for 2 weeks.

FODMAP, vegan and candida diet tried. Slight improvement.



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