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Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

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WhiteCat
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Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby WhiteCat » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:24 am

Ok, I’ve thought about it.

If I were to go ahead I would scrub my mouth with a brand new toothbrush and use plain water to scrub my teeth and tongue.

Then I would use a teaspoon to scrape my tongue coating off.

Then I would get my husband to scrape his tongue with another spoon and give me the result to spread over my tongue. (I’m not really keen, just desperate)

I would focus on putting the scrapings towards the back of my tongue.

I think I would aim to do this 3x per day.

I would also likely fast at least for the first few days to give the new bacteria a chance, or maybe use sugar/ glucose to feed them? Not sure might fast then use sugar from day 3 onwards...

I think I would run the experiment for 2 weeks, I think I would loose heart after that time if there was no improvement.

Off topic but I think no matter the outcome it will trigger another major depression.

Depression if it works because it’s so simple.
Depression if it doesn’t because this is all so ****ing hopeless.

Anyway, I’m looking for advice and people who want to also run the experiment.

Thanks for reading xx




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ikageorgian
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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby ikageorgian » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:18 am

WhiteCat wrote:Ok, I’ve thought about it.

If I were to go ahead I would scrub my mouth with a brand new toothbrush and use plain water to scrub my teeth and tongue.

Then I would use a teaspoon to scrape my tongue coating off.

Then I would get my husband to scrape his tongue with another spoon and give me the result to spread over my tongue. (I’m not really keen, just desperate)

I would focus on putting the scrapings towards the back of my tongue.

I think I would aim to do this 3x per day.

I would also likely fast at least for the first few days to give the new bacteria a chance, or maybe use sugar/ glucose to feed them? Not sure might fast then use sugar from day 3 onwards...

I think I would run the experiment for 2 weeks, I think I would loose heart after that time if there was no improvement.

Off topic but I think no matter the outcome it will trigger another major depression.

Depression if it works because it’s so simple.
Depression if it doesn’t because this is all so ****ing hopeless.

Anyway, I’m looking for advice and people who want to also run the experiment.

Thanks for reading xx


@WhiteCat You cool, I'm with you, keep us updated, remember honey, hope dies the last. XX

Lifelongsufferer
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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby Lifelongsufferer » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:49 am

If I were to do this I would use a chlorine bleach rinse beforehand. Think about it this way - you want to give the new bacteria as much of a chance to survive as possible. Simply brushing your teeth does not get rid of the bad breath so, logically, it won’t get rid of the bacteria.

I think you need a clean (as possible) slate to begin with. The Oral Microbiota Transplant paper I posted mentioned using a sodium hypochlorite (chlorine bleach) rinse before introducing the new microbiome.

When people have fecal microbiota transplants they have colonics and take supplements to “clean themselves out” for weeks beforehand too.

Just something to think about.
22 UK

Tonsils/adenoids removed
FESS surgery
Visited 3+ ENTs & 2 gastros.
Diagnosed w/ SIBO (hydrogen test)
Peroxide, metronidazole and Sodium Hypochlorite all worked for 2 weeks.

FODMAP, vegan and candida diet tried. Slight improvement.

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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby ttylxman2 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:09 am

This is a great (and very disgusting) idea. Excited to see the results. I think we should gather a little more info on the oral microbiome just so we are up to date with the current science.

Here is what I found with a cursory search:
It has long been known that oral bacteria preferentially colonize different surfaces in the oral cavity as a result of specific adhesins on the bacterial surface binding to complementary specific receptors on a given oral surface. Indeed, the profiles of 40 cultivable bacterial species differed markedly on different oral soft tissue surfaces, saliva, and supragingival and subgingival plaques from healthy subjects

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1287824/

The mouth is comprised of an oral cavity, which includes the teeth and gums, surrounded by the lips, cheeks, tongue, palate, and throat. Each of these habitats offers differing environmental conditions, and as such, is colonized by a different microbial flora.

The second largest biomass of bacteria within the mouth is found on the surface of the tooth enamel, with an estimation of 10^11 organisms per gram wet weight [B1]. This large and diverse population of bacteria is able to reside on the enamel because they form well organized communities known as a biofilm or more commonly supragingival plaque.

https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Mouth

Two weeks of tongue brushing or scraping by a group of patients free of periodontitis resulted in negligible reductions in bacteria on the tongue, whereas the amount of tongue coating decreased significantly. Therefore, tongue cleaning seems to reduce the substrates for putrefaction, rather than the bacterial load.

Clinical studies revealed that brushing the teeth exclusively was not very effective in reducing oral malodor scores.42,45 A combination of tooth and tongue brushing or tooth brushing alone have a beneficial effect on bad breath for up to 1 h (73% and 30% reductions in VSC, respectively).

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 8000500007

Brushing the teeth reduced malodour modestly. So did tongue scraping and gum chewing. In contrast, brushing the tongue dorsum, especially the posterior half was remarkably effective, which confirmed it as a major site of oral malodour contribution.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12090457

Subsequently, for inter-group comparisons, the rates of total bacterial amounts on days 3 and 10 against the baseline were compared between subjects with and without tongue cleaning using a Wilcoxon test. There was a tendency that subjects had more for a greater reduction in bacterial load against the baseline in subjects who cleaned their tongue, though the difference was not significant (p = 0.106). Furthermore, there was no difference between the groups on day 10 (p = 0.478). Thus, the previous and present results show that the effect of tongue cleaning on reduction of bacterial amount is not remarkable, and it remains unclear whether tongue cleaning has a practical effect to reduce bacterial load in the whole oral cavity.

https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com ... -6831-14-4

According to the research, tongue scraping and brushing isn't enough to have it ready to receive a transplant. The bacteria is still there just the debris it fed on is now gone.

Quite eye opening for me and I will from now on be doing much more to clean my tongue than just scraping and brushing.

For a transplant I would do a deep cleanse on my tongue by scraping it then thoroughly brushing it down with chlorhexidine or bleach. Hopefully someone has some other additional ideas to try too.

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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby WhiteCat » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:19 am

For a transplant I would do a deep cleanse on my tongue by scraping it then thoroughly brushing it down with chlorhexidine or bleach. Hopefully someone has some other additional ideas to try too.


Yeah, I thought about this - but if bleach has any residual killing effect then it will kill my vulnerable transplanted matter.

Also, when fecal transplants are performed there is zero attempt to kill the current flora.

So I can't see why an oral transplant would require it?


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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby ttylxman2 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:33 am

WhiteCat wrote:So I can't see why an oral transplant would require it?


Found this:

Decide how you are going to prepare the bowel to welcome fecal transplant (lavage, natural or traditional antibiotics, biofilm busters, fasting etc). If you choose to purge/lavage, only do this prior to the first fecal transplant in a series as it will otherwise disrupt growth of the new flora. If you have a pathogen it should always be treated before fecal transplant.

http://thepowerofpoop.com/epatients/fec ... lant-faqs/

The pathogen is your bacteria that cause halitosis in this case.
Last edited by ttylxman2 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

WhiteCat
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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby WhiteCat » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:34 am

Lifelongsufferer wrote:If I were to do this I would use a chlorine bleach rinse beforehand. Think about it this way - you want to give the new bacteria as much of a chance to survive as possible. Simply brushing your teeth does not get rid of the bad breath so, logically, it won’t get rid of the bacteria.

I think you need a clean (as possible) slate to begin with. The Oral Microbiota Transplant paper I posted mentioned using a sodium hypochlorite (chlorine bleach) rinse before introducing the new microbiome.

When people have fecal microbiota transplants they have colonics and take supplements to “clean themselves out” for weeks beforehand too.

Just something to think about.



I had a look at the prep for fecal transplant and some people use antibiotics first - but that is optional and not linked to successful outcomes.

I don't want to use the bleach because I think it will kill the transplant, I do not want to use antibiotics because they do not work for my bb.

The bleach *does* kill some of the odour causing bacteria but does not/ cannot eliminate them. I want the new colonies to overpower them - to compete for the same food sources and for them to be eliminated that way.

Entirely different strategy and mechanism.

People's bacterial colonies are entirely unused to this type of 'attack' so something tells me that either it'll work or it won't.

Bleach is too risky in terms of transplant survival and unnecessary I think.

Remember I will be doing this every day - if I rinse with bleach I'll be killing my new emerging colonies.

If I bleach before my first ever transplant I risk the residual bleach preventing the transplant from taking hold.

But, who knows? Maybe someone will agree to run the experiment with me and use the bleach - then we can compare the results. :D

WhiteCat
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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby WhiteCat » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:39 am

The pathogen is your halitosis in this case.


Halitosis is my *symptom*

The pathogen is/ are the bacterial colonies.

Prep is optional for fecal transplant.

From this website http://thepowerofpoop.com/epatients/fec ... e-big-day/

Decisions You Will Need to Make

There are several options on how to various aspects of the FMT procedure. Go through these options to decide for yourself which way would work better for your particular health situation and comfort level. There are no right answers.

Decide if you are going to use antibiotics / herbal anti-microbials / biofilm busters etc to kill off bad bugs prior to FMT. This is not mandatory, opinions differ. Many people who have overgrowths of bacteria such as C.diff and Klebseilla pneumonia have used antibiotics first with good results. Those who are experiencing overgrowth due to overuse of antibiotics often don’t want to risk another round. This is between you and your doctor to determine the best course of action prior to FMT.
Decide if you are going to do a bowel-washout (lavage) or not. This is not mandatory, opinions differ. The goal of a washout is to minimise the amount of old poop present at the time of infusion of the new poop. Fasting or low-fibre liquid diets help achieve this.

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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby ttylxman2 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:45 am

WhiteCat wrote:The pathogen is/ are the bacterial colonies.

Immediately edited it after I posted it but you were too quick. Tired it's late :(

WhiteCat wrote:I don't want to use the bleach because I think it will kill the transplant, I do not want to use antibiotics because they do not work for my bb.


Understandable about not wanting to hurt the transplant, but if you are going to be doing it multiple times it might be worth it to wipe the slate clean as best as possible. If the bacteria load on the tongue is at 100% then it is going to be very difficult for anything you put in your mouth to replace it. It is protected in biofilm and not going to be easy to uproot. The bleach tongue brushing should help break up the biofilm at the very least. That's another reason fecal transplants may be different.. The bacteria may not be protected within biofilms and can be easily out-competed or flushed out prior.

As for antibiotics not working.. I've taken antibiotics that did nothing for my breath and others that cleared it up completely so maybe you just need to try a different kind.

WhiteCat
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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby WhiteCat » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:51 am

ttylxman2, do you have an available donor?

Are you able to do this with me? I'm not going to use the bleach, but you could.

This is why researchers need a huge pool of candidates to study when they try new therapies - so many variables!

When people do fecal transplants the first, most desirable donors are immediate family members - spouses and children.

That makes things easier... you got peeps?

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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby ttylxman2 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:01 am

Nope. I haven't even spoken about halitosis with any of my family and it would be near impossible to get any of them to agree to giving me their tongue scrapings to put in my mouth. They'd probably try to check me into a mental hospital.

ttylxman2
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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby ttylxman2 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:06 am

WhiteCat wrote:
Prep is optional for fecal transplant.


You are correct but the same website also says

Starve your microbiota for two weeks before fecal transplant as most have a two week life cycle. This means going on a low carbohydrate, low fiber diet. If you are very sick an elemental liquid diet may be necessary both to reduce microbiota and inflammation.


So the fecal transplants aren't competing with anything unlike in the oral transplant w/o bleach.

WhiteCat
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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby WhiteCat » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:07 am

ttylxman2 wrote:Nope. I haven't even spoken about halitosis with any of my family and it would be near impossible to get any of them to agree to giving me their tongue scrapings to put in my mouth. They'd probably try to check me into a mental hospital.


That's a shame.

What if it works for me?

Will you find a way to do it?

ttylxman2
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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby ttylxman2 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:10 am

WhiteCat wrote:
ttylxman2 wrote:Nope. I haven't even spoken about halitosis with any of my family and it would be near impossible to get any of them to agree to giving me their tongue scrapings to put in my mouth. They'd probably try to check me into a mental hospital.


That's a shame.

What if it works for me?

Will you find a way to do it?


Definitely. I'd put an ad in craigslist for someone with perfect dental health to enroll in a "research test" in which their tongue is scraped 3x daily and kept in fridge for daily collection. (will it survive that?) Would pay them of course not sure how much would be necessary.

So gross though I don't know if I could do it without puking.

WhiteCat
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Re: Backyard Oral Microbiota Transplant

Postby WhiteCat » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:13 am

ttylxman2 wrote:
WhiteCat wrote:
Prep is optional for fecal transplant.


You are correct but the same website also says

Starve your microbiota for two weeks before fecal transplant as most have a two week life cycle. This means going on a low carbohydrate, low fiber diet. If you are very sick an elemental liquid diet may be necessary both to reduce microbiota and inflammation.


So the fecal transplants aren't competing with anything unlike in the oral transplant w/o bleach.


Jeebus, maybe I should fast for a while before my first transplant?

Fasting really does have a positive effect on my bb.

Trouble is I am already fairly thin, 49kgs or 108lbs, and I lose weight really fast and easily. Plus starving myself is really, really hard.

But I guess, in this case, it's worth it.

This shit had better work!!

I think I could manage a 2 - 3 day fast - then my first transplant, and just eat bland foods after that?

If fasting kills bacteria then I don't want to continue with it after any transplant...



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