Halitosis Q&A

[Gabriel]

I have had a very busy week so please pardon me for being silent a few days.

The other thread was getting very long - hard to keep track of questions. That's why I started this one. Elliott and anyone else I missed: if you don't mind, quote or restate your question again over here.

[Gabriel]

hi there i can say after years of trying with this thing we have call halitosis,i can bet anything that it comes from our tummy.

Bet nothing on that. 99% of halitosis is an oral infection.

So. 1% of chronic halitosis is digestive related. Are you going to stick with that?

So having putrid gassy burps after eating, having taste and smell of fermented food after eating, weak stomach valve not keeping digestive acid down, sour stomach upon waking up, bloated stomach after eating, dehydration, trouble digesting dairy and protein ....etc.

The above are a 1% contribution to this "oral infection"? What else is infecting the oral area? And where can this other 99% of the infection originate?

Elliott, although not an MD I must say these symptoms sound exactly like GERD (acid reflux). If you have this condition there many changes you should make in your lifestyle to alleviate the symptoms. Have you done any research on this?

My quotes are approximate and not scientific fact, because there is just not enough research yet to yield exact figures. Is it 99%? 98%? 97%? we just don't know exactly. What we do know is that almost all halitosis originates in the mouth.

My "99%" quote is to say that there are many systemic conditions that can contribute to BB. Perhaps 1% of cases have little or no oral infection and are mostly or entirely caused by these other conditions. The other 99% are not neatly categorised.

Every person is unique, and apart from having a unique mixture of overpopulated oral bacteria each person can also have systemic problems that contribute to the disease.

For example, consider hydrogen sulphide, a very common component of oral malodour. H2S is a serious toxin, or poison, which can kill a person in large enough quantities. It is fairly easy to produce lethal quantities in a lab. It is also known to deaden the sense of smell. When this toxin is produced in the mouth, it can overwhelm the immune system and travel into the blood stream and thereby affect the entire body.

This is not the only toxin produced by anerobic bacteria. There are many others. Methyl mercaptan is another common bacterial byproduct - very pungent and vile smelling - and also a serious toxin.

The mouth and body are connected, not separate. If you have a lot of toxins in your body other organs and systemic functions will be affected. So in addition to mouth odour, many kinds of other physical problems can easily develop, especially with the condition of a depressed immune system.

Severe cases of BB generally have multiple symptoms, depressed immune, ongoing illnesses of various kinds, and these can include digestive and other problems. We see these symptoms as being interconnected rather than separate.

[spygirl]

I think mucous tends to make bb worst by feeding bacteria. And for those who have already done everything humanly possible, I think it is the lingual tonsil. This is the only tonsil that is left unexplored. And come to think of it, assuming that most possible causes of bb are exhausted e.g. nasal polyps/palatine tonsils/adenoids removal, these bacteria need some place to cling on in our airway and the only cryptic host left is our lingual tonsils. I agree that there are tons of other causes but most of us here have more healthy lifestyle than most human beings. Furthermore, these 'other causes' will most likely manifest in multiple symptoms making it easier for healthcare professional to identify. Just my view.

[Gabriel]

There has been some discussion about PND as a source of BB. Yes, PND can definitely contribute or even be a major source of BB.

But I think it is important to view the body as an interconnected system. Diseases of the body are called "systemic" by health professionals. This is why our clinical assessment includes examination of detailed medical and dental reports. We need to know about everything that can possibly contribute to the overall ill health of a client.

We have learned that bad breath analysis is very complex and is different for every person.

[Gabriel]

guess i'm in that 1 percent..


And because this is basically 'the site' for those with bb, most of us are probably in that 1 percent.. That's not hard to believe either.. This is the internet.. we come from far and wide. Us comprising that 1 percent makes plenty of sense.
Some people here have been suffering from bb for 10 or more years.. do these people really have an infection in their mouth? I doubt it.

Surely this clinic is beneficial to the majority of bb sufferers, yes.. But I'm certain we are something else alltogether. I noticed you failed to acknowledge my questions in the last thread, Gabriel, and they were clearly colon related... For most of us, Halitosis is a symptom of something on a grander scale than the oral region.

Mike, your questions & theories are not easily answered except in general terms. Absolutely the body is made up of many interconnected systems, of which the mouth is only a part.

I believe you were discussing the manifestation of H2S (hydrogen sulphide - the rotten egg smell) in multiple observable physical processes. H2S is a powerful toxin and oral pathogen that can invade the body through the bloodstream. It's impossible to assess individual cases simply by looking at a report of general symptoms, but I definitely agree that the entire body can be affected especially in severe cases of halitosis.

Science can't answer everything about BB just yet. We do know that :
(1) The tongue is the primary (but not only) source of BB bacteria
(2) BB bacteria can invade the bloodstream and affect the rest of the body
(3) The immune system will be weakened by persistent BB
(4) Other systemic conditions can result from, and in turn support, the condition of BB
(5) Every person's problems are physically unique, at least on the microscopic level
(6) Only one scientist in the entire world has been able to develop a treatment system for severe halitosis that takes into account every point on this list.

[mike987]

guess i'm in that 1 percent..


And because this is basically 'the site' for those with bb, most of us are probably in that 1 percent.. That's not hard to believe either.. This is the internet.. we come from far and wide. Us comprising that 1 percent makes plenty of sense.
Some people here have been suffering from bb for 10 or more years.. do these people really have an infection in their mouth? I doubt it.

Surely this clinic is beneficial to the majority of bb sufferers, yes.. But I'm certain we are something else alltogether. I noticed you failed to acknowledge my questions in the last thread, Gabriel, and they were clearly colon related... For most of us, Halitosis is a symptom of something on a grander scale than the oral region.

Mike, your questions & theories are not easily answered except in general terms. Absolutely the body is made up of many interconnected systems, of which the mouth is only a part.

I believe you were discussing the manifestation of H2S (hydrogen sulphide - the rotten egg smell) in multiple observable physical processes. H2S is a powerful toxin and oral pathogen that can invade the body through the bloodstream. It's impossible to assess individual cases simply by looking at a report of general symptoms, but I definitely agree that the entire body can be affected especially in severe cases of halitosis.

Science can't answer everything about BB just yet. We do know that :
(1) The tongue is the primary (but not only) source of BB bacteria
(2) BB bacteria can invade the bloodstream and affect the rest of the body
(3) The immune system will be weakened by persistent BB
(4) Other systemic conditions can result from, and in turn support, the condition of BB
(5) Every person's problems are physically unique, at least on the microscopic level
(6) Only one scientist in the entire world has been able to develop a treatment system for severe halitosis that takes into account every point on this list.

Thanks for replying to my comments, Gabriel.

In addition to these more recent colon problems, I do have my share of oral and sinus issues too.. Namely, PND, extremely cryptic tonsils that produce tonsil stones, and probable nasal polyps.

Long before this H2S issue and anything I felt was colon related, I was concerned most about my tonsils.. What you say about problems in the mouth causing or relating to other problems in the body seems viable, though I've had tonsil stones many years before this colon/digestive(?) issue...

I put my worries about my tonsils at rest more recently and focused on this colon problem (I'd rather have small proximity tonsil bb than poop/flatulence bb)... But as you insist, perhaps they are more related than I thought.

A tonsillectomy really ought to be my first priority.. It's just so expensive w/out health insurance >.< .. There's no way I could ever afford it right now



Oh yeah.. I'm guessing that last point on your list is a plug for your BB center? Really, I'd like to visit your center, but currently with tonsils, it'd be pointless.. There's just too much never ending gunk having it's way in there. If I ever manage to score the cash for a tonsillectomy and still have BB problems, I'll come to visit you..
That is, assuming I have enough left over money from the future lottery win it'll take to get these tonsils out in the US.

[Gabriel]

Oh yeah.. I'm guessing that last point on your list is a plug for your BB center? Really, I'd like to visit your center, but currently with tonsils, it'd be pointless.. There's just too much never ending gunk having it's way in there. If I ever manage to score the cash for a tonsillectomy and still have BB problems, I'll come to visit you..
That is, assuming I have enough left over money from the future lottery win it'll take to get these tonsils out in the US.

Lol well no I'm not selling the clinic here, except as an informational point. I feel it should be mentioned that it is extremely difficult to find any health professional that understands severe halitosis in the way we do - as a systemic infection or disease - and even more difficult to find a viable medical solution. As you all know very well, generally just a mouthwash is prescribed - which, even if it did address the oral bacterial problem sufficiently, would still not address the many other physical symptoms and problems which are related.

You might consider seeing an ND (naturopath) if you can find an accredited professional in your area. This is my personal opinion. I have gone to naturopaths for various health reasons in the past and I'm impressed with the way they use many different types of medical/wellness approaches - like several specialists in one - and choose the approach or methodology (or combination of) that is/are appropriate to address the problem. NDs also tend to see the body as a whole, which is encouraging.

Another option is to visit a nutritionist. Diet can have an enormous effect on overall health, particularly if you happen to have food allergies, nutritional anemias, or recently developed sensitivities to certain foods, preservatives or chemicals. With all that stuff going on in your body, it's not unreasonable to suggest that your body chemistry may be changing.

[maclean]

so tell me gabriel if i come to your clinic what would you do to cure me,how did you cure the last lot of people and i wonder how much this would cost.in the end what do you rearly do send them away with a mouth wash i dont get this and where is your clinic.
ps my diet is great my oral hygene is great and always has been.

[girlie girl]

Science can't answer everything about BB just yet. We do know that :
(1) The tongue is the primary (but not only) source of BB bacteria
(2) BB bacteria can invade the bloodstream and affect the rest of the body
(3) The immune system will be weakened by persistent BB
(4) Other systemic conditions can result from, and in turn support, the condition of BB
(5) Every person's problems are physically unique, at least on the microscopic level
(6) Only one scientist in the entire world has been able to develop a treatment system for severe halitosis that takes into account every point on this list.

Seeing that the immune system plays such a big part in one's bad breath, I wonder if that is what happened with Oceanside. He began sucking on 500mg Vitamin C's several times a day and over time, removed his bad breath. Since VItamin C is known to improve the immune system, maybe it gives the immune system enough boost to allow the body to get the bacteria under control. Gabriel do you have takes on this notion? I wonder if a body cleanse, then diet to support the immune system and Vitamin C would make a difference? Thoughts to ponder.

[girlie girl]

Gabriel wrote:

RE pH levels - not my forte, but some things are known. These levels vary among bacteria. Normal tongue dorsum pH is ~ 6.3. BB bacteria are typically in the 6.7- 7.0 range but we have found ph levels anywhere from 7+ to as high as 9.

To reflect on my preivous post...The vitamin C issue. I wonder how much the vitamin drops the ph in the mouth? Does the vitamin C help boost the immnune system and lower the ph in the mouth so the bacteria have a hard time surviving? Does it make our mouths more like those with normal breath? Just wondering...[/b]

[girlie girl]

Sorry, here I go again...brainstorming. Look at this link on mouth ph...

http://www.zellies.com/store.asp?pid=9620&catid=19708

From the above website link:

I encourage patients to try to consume at least 6.5 grams of xylitol each day for at least six months - or until they have dental disease under control. 6.5 grams daily is sufficient effect to reduce the numbers of harmful bacteria in the mouth. The bacteria that take their place are non adhesive and it is this population that appear to be protective of teeth over the long term."

THIS STUFF WORKS: “I just want to say how pleased my wife and I are with your Xylitol products. My problems with Bad Breath and coffee colored teeth have been with me for 40 years. The results without a lot of mumbo jumbo is: this stuff works! My breath problem is solved, my teeth are getting lighter, and I don’t feel so guilty using Xylitol sweetener in my coffee to keep my weight down.” - Michael C.

Someone on this website spoke about a product CLOSYS, to decrease bacterial levels. Well on this site, this doctor states that you should rinse first with CLOSYS and then brush with normal toothpaste, then chew a ZELLIE to neutralize the acid. I probably will order some to try, plus for my kids to prevent cavities. Anyone with ideas or thoughts would be great.


We might be onto something because of Gabriel. I really love it that we are open to him and what he might have to offer. I've been reading at this website for a year now. I don't post very often, but having Gabriel here makes me feel like we are moving in some sort of positive direction. I just feel a little better. Thanks Gabriel for your time.

[Gabriel]

Someone on this website spoke about a product CLOSYS, to decrease bacterial levels. Well on this site, this doctor states that you should rinse first with CLOSYS and then brush with normal toothpaste, then chew a ZELLIE to neutralize the acid. I probably will order some to try, plus for my kids to prevent cavities. Anyone with ideas or thoughts would be great.

CloSYS uses sodium chlorite (a precursor for chlorine dioxide) as an antimicrobial agent. Among its many industrial uses, sodium chlorite is added to municipal drinking water to remove unwanted tastes and odours.

It's also a fungicide, making it helpful in reducing some types of halitosis biota. It is sometimes used in the clinic as an alternative maintenance rinse (we also sell it online at freshbreath.ca if you're looking for a source).

It's a good rinse that works well for some people. But if you use this or any other antimicrobial rinse, you must use it correctly to get best results.

Rinse for 30-60 seconds, 3 times a day. Don't eat or drink or brush etc for at least 30 minutes after rinsing. You must give the medicine time to work!

Neutralising rampant oral bacteria is not easy - if it was, everyone would have "Instant BreathAway®" pills in their bathroom cabinets by now.

[Mico]

Gabriel, does the clinic you are working in have any experience with the so called blood-borne halitosis? Did you treat the oral part of the problem, wich many have? Like ppl with tmau have often a coated tongue etc - so a low choline diet works for the fishy part of the BB, and an oral treatement for the tongue coating etc. Any experience with that? Thanks in advance for the answer.

[Gabriel]

so tell me gabriel if i come to your clinic what would you do to cure me,how did you cure the last lot of people and i wonder how much this would cost.in the end what do you rearly do send them away with a mouth wash i dont get this and where is your clinic.
ps my diet is great my oral hygene is great and always has been.

Hi maclean. The clinic has a website that explains what they have doing for 15 years to treat chronic halitosis. Most details of assessment & treatment are there, the science behind it, etc. freshbreathclinic.com ..

Btw it's not a cure - it's a treatment that reduces the oral bacteria so that low-impact rinses can control the problem indefinitely.

Please read the information on the website first, then call or email to ask about fees or anything else. You will never be pressured or added to an email list, etc. This is a clinic that respects anonymity and confidentiality.

The FBC is the world's first and original dedicated halitosis clinic, founded and designed by a pioneer halitosis scientist, and is not like any other BB clinic.

[Gabriel]

Seeing that the immune system plays such a big part in one's bad breath, I wonder if that is what happened with Oceanside. He began sucking on 500mg Vitamin C's several times a day and over time, removed his bad breath. Since VItamin C is known to improve the immune system, maybe it gives the immune system enough boost to allow the body to get the bacteria under control. Gabriel do you have takes on this notion? I wonder if a body cleanse, then diet to support the immune system and Vitamin C would make a difference? Thoughts to ponder.

Vitamin C has been controversial for decades in the science world, resulting in medical and consumer confusion to this day. Here's an excellent article explaining why politics, and not science, discredited Dr Linus Pauling's brilliant 1971 landmark book about Vitamin C. Btw Dr Pauling is so far the only person to win two unshared Nobel prizes.

http://www.ceri.com/ed-vitc.htm

I read Dr Pauling's book many years ago during my personal research of vitamins and supplements. I was searching for a way to avoid my yearly "habit" of getting sick with colds or flu at least twice each winter. Long story short: I was successful in breaking the routine, and in fact did not get sick with cold or flu even once over the next 5 years. Megadoses of Vit C (2-3g per day) were only one element of my complex health rituals.

Consider these facts:
- Vitamin C is an essential nutrient not manufactured in the human body, although all other animals can do this in large amounts.

- The US RDA for Vit C is 60 - 95mg. A milligram is one thousandth of a gram. This is the minimum required to keep a person from having scurvy, and has nothing to do with any other function of Vit C - for example, boosting immune function.

-The Fresh Breath Clinic doesn't recommend taking more than 500mg of Vit C per day. However this is still much higher than Canadian or US RDAs.

Personally I have found that high amounts of Vit C can affect peristalsis, ie may cause either constipation or diarrhea depending on the person. Otherwise there are no known side effects.

Since Vit C is water soluble, your body can't store it; whatever amount you don't use right away will be eliminated when you urinate. Therefore a steady intake is necessary to have a constant benefit.