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pepto-bismol and VSC's
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asd
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Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:28 am    Post subject: pepto-bismol and VSC's Reply with quote

hey i still visit the site every so often. Mainly to check if theres any OMG this is the final cure posts. And also to check up on everyone.

I still think about BB and its causes. It intrigues me.
This will just be a short post cos its late and I only have a few thoughts to share.
I tried pepto bismol that I saw on here. Mainly because I was interested in the ability of it to stain VSC's black. This could be such a powerful tool in BB treatment. It mainly works overnight, because your mouth is stable and it doesnt get washed away. I did it and I had VSC's around where the coating on my tongue is. Also some of it was on the gumline and it was more heavy around my wisdom tooth which is currently emerging.

Now this basicly just shows that I have pockets around my gums where the bacteria producing VSC's are and also around that wisdom tooth.
This means that gums and the wisdom tooth are the problem, as they have pockets with bacteria in them, this causes the overgrowth on the tongue. For anyone who hasnt tried this I recommend it. It is interesting even if it doesnt help.

But I'm cured right?
well I'm much better of after the tonsilectomy. But I had my teeth cleaned up the other day as a final move.

So basicly I believe that many cases of BB are due to pockets of these bad bacteria, causing the overgrowth on the tongue. Pockets can be: Tonsils(huge pockets I would have lover to test pepto bismol when I still had them to see if they turned black), gums and wisdom teeth.
WHat other places?
Sinuses of course.

Even though I am an will never be as informed as some of the people on here about BB, I do believe it is not incurable and is probably more simple in origin than most people assume. Also a final point, as someone here has said, Bad breath is most likely caused by phenotype not genotype.
So yes we may be more suceptible with allergies or dodgy noses or even low IGA or whatever, but this alone wont give you BB without environmental factors coming into play, such as periods of poor dental hygiene etc.

Oh and one more thing about pepto bismol. If you take it just before bed, dont eat or drink or brush after, then chew it up and disperse it well in your mouth. Then check, the next day and have no blackness, then your BB is caused by something else and is not bacterial in origin. Thats a simple but reliable test, and could help someone.
good luck
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Snobuni
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

''Oh and one more thing about pepto bismol. If you take it just before bed, dont eat or drink or brush after, then chew it up and disperse it well in your mouth. Then check, the next day and have no blackness, then your BB is caused by something else and is not bacterial in origin. Thats a simple but reliable test, and could help someone''.

Hmm, interesting last comment. When using the pepto, my tongue was never black, also, I'm taking antibiotics that haven't changed my breath at all. Does this mean my bb isn't a bacterial problem? Surely all bb is due to bacteria directly or indirectly (from a rotton tooth or from reflux changing the ph in the mouth and making it a better environment for bad bacteria to survive in)?
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halitosisux
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Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snobuni,
This could mean its all happening inside your sinuses. General antibiotics can take a very long time to work up there before anything changes (if at all). While you sleep it might be keeping that stuff from your nose out of your mouth and prevent the blackness for forming. Everyone's saliva sulphur levels are also likely to vary from person to person, which might be a factor.
This pepto test of asd's might only apply to bacterial activity orginating well inside the mouth, from gums etc.

Nice to hear from you again asd, fascinating way of seeing the areas of most VSC production, if this is actually what its proving. Some excellent info to consider there.
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asd
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Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well Snobuni, that is interesting.
'I noticed that Pepto-Bismol sometimes darkens the tongue Why does this happen and how long does it last?
The active ingredient in Pepto-Bismol contains bismuth. When a small amount of bismuth combines with trace amounts of sulfur in your saliva and gastrointestinal tract, a black-colored substance (bismuth sulfide) is formed. This discoloration is temporary and harmless. It can last several days after you stop taking Pepto-Bismol. Individual bowel habits, your age (the intestinal tract slows down with age), and the amount of the product taken all help to determine how long Pepto-Bismol is in your system.'

This is from the official website. And it realloy happens for me, the exact areas that are coated on my tongue went black.
I would try it a fair few times, if u get no blackness then I personally believe you dont have a bacterial problem.
Remember: loads and loads of people have tongue coating, it does not mean its causing your BB. But it can be.

As halitosisux said, it could be your sinuses. It also could be certain stomach issues.There are many non bacterial causes of BB.

As for me, well I had an interesting experience today. Yesterday I deliberately did not brush floss or use mouthwash. I ate all day. So in total I hadnt interfered with my mouth for what was going on 30+hours. I popped the pepto and did nothing after and went to sleep, lo and behold I had much less blackness than before I got my teeth cleaned.
Pepto is really a powerful tool for someone with similar BB cases to me.

Not only can it be used for staining, but if you chew it instead of chewing gum it completely wipes out VSC's. I had a slight bad taste yesterday after my not brushing and eating whatever. This was about 1-2 oclock at night. I popped one and it completely went.
Tbh for anyone with persistent BB I would get tonsils and wisdom teeth out, get your teeth professionally cleaned. and then I would reconsider. Screw all this buying and testing random shit on the internet. Oh and everyone should taske vitamin C regardless, its cheap and you dont get ill.

Thats me done, I will revisit some time later in the year, good luck to you all xx

*oh and I read about donations, well I am a poor as fudge student so I cant. But when I finish my business degree and get more money I will be in a stronger position to help out i hope.
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ElGrizzle
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Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many people kill the bacteria in the mouth, and notice their bad breath is still there. It is most likely a specific digestion process caused or not caused by bacteria which carries wastes through the blood into all or some areas of the body including the mouth, sinuses, lungs etc.

Pepto Bismol may help. But what else do they put in it? Because I noticed that I still had BB from it (possibly artificial sweetener). Although it made my tummy feel nice.
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Snobuni
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I take pepto my breath does improve, so it must be acting on the bacteria in my mouth even though it's not staining my tongue. It does stain around the gum line of my back teeth though, maybe there's an issue there (no decay or gum disease though according to my dentist).
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asd
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Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'It is most likely a specific digestion process caused or not caused by bacteria which carries wastes through the blood into all or some areas of the body including the mouth, sinuses, lungs etc.' -Based on what exactly?

I think if that was true you would probably have more to worry about than BB. You have to remember something: whatever causes your BB is having little or no effect on your overall health. Therefore it is probably a localised issue.

Snobuni, you said you get the dark markings around the wisdoms? well maybe theres a local infection there, under the gum or in some sort of pocket. A small area of highly concentrated VSC producing bacteria can cause BB, and pepto's effect will be minimal because it cannot reach this pocket in any decent amount.
In my opinion, wisdom teeth are something to be watched carefully, two people have suffered here and been cured by wisdom removal.

Wisdom's make a lot of sense. Dentists dont know what they are doing when it comes to wisdom teeth. They underestimate them greatly. Wisdom's are problem for humans now that we dont chew bones and break our teeth out. Therefore our mouths are not designed to be so damn crowded and wisdoms are meant to come through properly.

If i had chronic BB that was destroying my life, I would get the fuc**rs out asap. What have you got to lose? What have you got to gain?
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snoopsister
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Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

funny, pepto makes my toungue black and helps my breath, I ran out and bb CAME back, I am off to get more today Very Happy
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DRASTIC
Sheriff


Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was taking the liquid form of pepto bismol and found it didnot stain my tongue or mouth at all and it did not help my bad breath but rather made it worst i think.

Its after reading the ingredients on both liquid and chewable tablets of pepto bismol that i began to compare.

It seems like the liquid form of pepto-bismol does not contain povidone.

Only the chewable pepto- bismol contains povidone.

This is what I realised. Apparently povidone is antibacterial in nature.

YOu can go check out povidone on the internet.

I am beginning ti think that it is the povidone in the chewable tablets that is working as antibacterial in the mouth.

Drastic
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Snobuni
Sheriff


Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found this article;

"...My second story relates to this column, so please bear with me as I share one of my success stories with an appreciative patient. About two years ago, I saw a middle-aged, male patient for the first time. Mr. Ed (fictitious name) was friendly, but a bit anxious and ready to tell me his woes. Iím a good listener and was eager to find out what was troubling him. He had already been through two rounds of periodontal surgery and was an active patient with a local periodontist. The periodontist had diagnosed him with aggressive periodontitis, and he was taking Periostat b.i.d. as directed. I questioned him about his home care and he rattled off the usual names of several oral hygiene home-care implements that hygienists associate with good oral hygiene, such as the interdental brush, rubber tip, dental tape, and power brush. This patient was new to me but had been in this particular general dental practice for several years.

I reviewed the recare letters from the periodontistís hygienist, and she noted that he was maintaining well with good home care on each of about a dozen reports. The patient was very nervous in my chair and was convinced he would lose his teeth in spite of two rounds of full-mouth periodontal surgery. Mr. Ed cried when he told me that he feared losing his teeth, and he wanted me to give him hope. In performing a comprehensive periodontal exam, I noticed immediately that he was still healing from the second round of surgery.

What shocked me the most, however, was my immediate impression that his home care was poor. Upon disclosing, I found significant amounts of biofilm along the gingival margin and interdentally, though he insisted that he was using his brushes and rubber tip according to directions. I told him I thought I could help but that I would need to see him a couple of times for detailed home-care instructions. My immediate thought was to focus on a new home-care procedure that would be easy to implement. So I sent him to the pharmacy for an oral irrigator and told him to purchase a bottle of 10 percent povidone iodine. I also told him to irrigate with a diluted povidone

iodine solution (one part povidone Iodine to nine parts water) once a day and return in a month. (I prefer diluted povidone iodine to other antimicrobial agents because of its broad-spectrum antimicrobial activity, low potential for developing resistance and adverse reactions, wide availability, ease of use, and affordability.)

A gamble with povidone iodine

I was a bit concerned about recommending povidone iodine because I had heard it was not approved by the FDA for intraoral use, and its safety as a self-applied adjunctive irrigant was not established. I decided to recommend it for a short time in an effort to heal his surgical wounds. When giving oral irrigation instructions, I always recommend a cannula-type tip for patients with moderate to deep pockets rather than the standard tip that does not penetrate as deeply into the pockets.1

When Mr. Ed returned the next month, there was marked improvement in surgical wound healing, and for the first time in a very long time (Iíd say 10 years or so), Mr. Ed felt encouraged. Neither he nor I could fully comprehend the dramatic change from inflamed, bleeding gingival tissues to a healthy and firm condition.

What caused this change in tissues from diseased to healthy in such a short time? Most of us understand that elimination or adequate suppression of periodontopathic bacteria in subgingival microbiota is absolutely essential for wound healing. According to the literature, conventional mechanical root debridement (and pocket reduction surgery repeated twice in this case) does not eliminate all periodontopathic bacteria from the subgingival ecosystem.2 Sites with deep periodontal pockets, grooves, furcations, and concavities are difficult to access with periodontal instruments, and periodontal bacteria can even invade dentinal tubules and live on the mucosa, tongue, tonsils, and gingiva.2

In Mr. Edís case, I theorized that the povidone iodine (which is a broad-spectrum antimicrobial) suppressed the bacteria that assist in the formation of soft-tissue biofilms. Supragingivally, biofilms form on a single surface, but subgingivally they form in three areas: on the tooth side of a pocket, on the epithelium lining of the pocket, and within the pocket, which is the loosely adherent plaque zone where the antimicrobial can easily destroy and wash away periodontopathogens that are not caught up in thick intracellular matrix.

I explained to Mr. Ed that we were trying to remove ďgum bugsĒ that make up a sandwich between the teeth and under the gum line. These periodontopathogens live in and around the two slices of bread in a sandwich. (Not very appetizing, thatís for sure!) The tooth side of the pocket is one slice of bread, the pocket epithelium is the other slice of bread, and the loosely adherent plaque is located between the two. You can call it peanut butter or jelly, but make sure the patient understands itís a layer filled with bacteria..."

Some one else on this site has suggested that bacteria under the gum line that's missed when brushing and flossing could be a problem. I've been thinking of buying a water-pik for a while to try and clean under my gums (I don't have pockets, but my floss can get quite far up my gums). It could be woth trying this iodine in a water-pik or dipping floss into it (diluted correctly) then flossing. I have stains that build up along were the gum covers the bottom of the tooth, which may indicate a biofilm in that area, similar to the guy in the article. I think it definately worth a try, even garling with it too maybe.

This link is interesting too;

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mksg/per/2003/00000038/00000003/art00013
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halitosisux
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Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi snobuni,
Worth buying a water-pik and trying this antimicrobial out. Are you still on your HP therapy?
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asd
Master


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ordered 32 fluid ounces of Povidone Iodine today in relation to my other post. Cost around 20quid, most of which is gone on the postage and packaging from the US. Will probably have it by next week sometime.
My gums hurt when I floss, but never bleed. Therefore I think I have a very mild gum disease. My BB is almost a non issue for me now though, but I get sinusitis sometimes which can cause it to return, I think thats directly related to the few times I smoke ciggarettes, which I have just realised, so of course I will seriously consider smoking in future.
Anyway I am doing this because I think as time goes on, tartar and such will build up and a low level of BB will return, so I want a mor epermanent solution really, but I am basicly out of the woods after tonsillectomy and improved oral hygiene for a few years.
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Snobuni
Sheriff


Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi asd,

It's great that your tonsilectomy has got rid of most of your bb. It just goes to show that although it doesn't work for everyone, there'll alway be some it does work for. So worth giving it a go, no matter what! How long ago did you have your op? I had mine about 3-4 years ago, unfortunately it didn't help with my bb, but I'm still glad I had it done.

Could you post the link for the site where you got your Povidone Iodine? Are you based in the UK?
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asd
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Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just ordered it off ebay, i am in the UK.

Well today I have sinusitis dammit, so I have got BB. I know it cos sum dude offered me gum which never happens. Is kinda reassuring though because people are acting different to me today, so I know I dont normally have it. Still wierd though because I dont have the bad taste and my tongue is no more coated than normal, so Im like where is the sinusitis smell coming from exactly? I suppose it just comes down my throat somehow, because I dont have much pnd or anything.
Its my new issue though, because I want to never have to worry. I think its my gums to be honest and also the last time I had it I was home for the weekend, so I think I smoked a lot of fags on a night out, few days ago I smoked like 8 and now I have sinusitis. Hopefully never smoking can help me. I like to smoke weed though so thats a bit sucky.
Its wierd for me to tell whether I have it, because I dont have that clear symptoms. Usually I get a reaction and then notice my face feels a little bit strange. Im gonna do that periodontal treatment guide, and maybe a little parasite cleanse, and not smoke fags and hopefully that will be the end of it.
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snoopsister
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Joined: 06 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you guys Pepto really helps my stomach, it helps clean me out, frequent BM. My taste and breath is better, last week when my stomach was all messed up and no pepto, I felt like shit, and I had BB
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