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Why do relatives not detect our BB?

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aydinmur
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Post by aydinmur »

halitosisux wrote:I think the only way to know for certain is to have it measured with the latest modern diagnostic equipment...snip...
Latest modern diagnostic equipments dont truely measure halitosis but they measure gases only wherever you insert.

I did a simple experiment with Halimeter (Interscan corp). I measured halitosis of some juice (apricots, peach), milk, cola, buttermilk. Do you wonder what halitosis I measured with them?
See this picture: http://agizkokusu.net/garbage/juice.jpg

Do you wonder halitosis measurements of some objects ?
Here more measurements:
Green tea, 52 ppb
Stone, 13
Acryl liquid, 360
Listerine oral rinse, >4550
(Dove) hand soap, 70
Meron, PolyF,Adesor, bonding (dental cements), 19-70
Colgate total tooth paste, 243 (doesnt contain zinc)
sewer, 104 (foseptic pit:-)
Signal integral tooth paste, 74 (contains zinc)
(Arko) shaving cream, 116
Eugenol, 304 (ginger oil often used in herbal halitosis products)
O2 gas, 0


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Post by halitosisux »

Fascinating. Aydinmur, are you able to determine with absolute 100% certainty whether or not the people who come to you have BB and by what magnitude? Do you have access to gas spectrometry equipment as well as the standard halimeter?

Also, in cases of systemic bloodborne halitosis coming out of the lungs etc, would the compounds/chemicals being released not be contained throughout the bloodstream and if so is there no way to detect them in blood samples? For instance, in TMAU its done through either urine samples or you are tested for the actual gene that causes TMAU. But why not bloodtests to measure the amount of TMA in the bloodstream? - and potentially any other malodourous chemicals?

I read somewhere that if you eat very strong smelling foods like garlic, curry, etc, the compounds of which end up being carried in the bloodstream and released out of the lungs in some people, that if you smell the blood during this time you can actually smell it. If there are other foul smelling chemicals because of digestive problems that might be causing type 3 BB wont this also apply?
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Post by aydinmur »

halitosisux wrote:are you able to determine with absolute 100% certainty whether or not the people who come to you have BB and by what magnitude? Do you have access to gas spectrometry equipment as well as the standard halimeter?

First of all, there is not 100% in medicine.
Yes, I am able to distinguish the origin of halitosis of a person. Almost certainly.
But its magnitude ?, no.
Because halitometers measure only actual values of halitosis for just that moment. We dont know whether the patient had eaten any strong smelling foods yesterday or the day before yesterday.


Usually, most of doctors measure static mouth gas (statik agiz havasi = SAH). after patient keep close his mouth for 3 min. This is static air's smell. I call it SAH.

According to me, It dosent matter what SAH is.
It may be 10, 350, 600 or 1000 ppb.
This value avaliable only for the date of measurement. But it is unavailable for next appointment of that patient neither reflects general bad-odor status of that patient.

Most halitosis centers measure and evaluate SAH only. I dont think this is very good idea.

I read somewhere that if you eat very strong smelling foods like garlic, curry, etc, the compounds of which end up being carried in the bloodstream and released out of the lungs in some people,
This is correct.
For this reason SAH is available only one session for that patient. I have developed a mesaurement methodology. I measure gases with 5 different condition. Static mouth air, expiration mouth air, after zinc static mouth air, static nose air, axpiration nose air. Positions of this 5 numbers according to each other give me address(es) of the halitosis of that patient.

An example:
First patient, five data measured as 1000-850-300-750-690.
Second patient, measured as 56-42-5-34-33.

In these examples, both patient is clearly type 1 case.
First patient perhaps ate garlic yesterday. but second paient did not. Both case can not be type 4, or type5, most possible they are not type2, but cant not be said not type3.

As you see here, It doesnt matter magnitude of numbers. The important thing is status of numbers to each other. (Hope my English can be enough to explain what Im trying to tell you?)

My method nearly gives address of halitosis independently from magnitude of halimeter readings. But nothing is 100%.

Your other questions:
I have not experience on TMAU patients. I dont know what precursors can be detected in blood for TMAU patience.

I have no idea how blood can be smelled.

- Murat Aydin
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Post by halitosisux »

Thanks for your reply. I think I understand your main point in that values will vary depending on what's been eaten etc, and that its about isolating the source by analyzing the results from different samples taken. I see how use of zinc is used to determine type 1 cases, based on the levels before zinc is used.

So in other words, just taking a single halimeter reading to determine whether a person has bad breath or not is misleading because a person may have eaten something which which gives a high reading and on a different day when these foods are not consumed, may give a normal reading. So the halimeter wont distinguish between bad breath and other strong odours from foods eaten, such as garlic.

If you know the gasses you are looking for, would gas spectrometry be able to distinguish the difference between strong bad breath odours and strong food odours?

Do you come across many patients with TMAU? or patients that you cannot determine the cause of or to be able to cure them?
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Post by me »

Let's be honest with ourselves, we know we have BB. Probably 80% of the people we interact with can smell it. The thing is that some people is more polite than others and just won't tell you to not make you feel bad. Also some people is more sensitive than others, while for some people the smell might be unbaerable for others is not as bad. When I first started to have nose fart smell my father was the first one or one of the first ones to start asking me if I farted. Now neither my mother or father will mention my breath. I truly belive that they are not as sensitive to the smell now as they were when I first started with this. How ever they see the desperetion state I'm in so they won't mention BB at all. So I'll never be sure if they are truly less sensitive or just trying not to bring me down.
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Post by aydinmur »

halitosisux wrote:...snip..I see how use of zinc is used to determine type 1 cases, based on the levels before zinc is used.
Yes. I measure halitosis before and after zinc. If it doesnt decrease more than 20% of initial value, this is not type 1 case.
So in other words, just taking a single halimeter reading to determine whether a person has bad breath or not is misleading because a person may have eaten something which which gives a high reading and on a different day when these foods are not consumed, may give a normal reading. So the halimeter wont distinguish between bad breath and other strong odours from foods eaten, such as garlic.
Yes !

If you know the gasses you are looking for, would gas spectrometry be able to distinguish the difference between strong bad breath odours and strong food odours?
No. There are more than 1200 chemical compounds in breath air. Each of them may come with similar or same mechanisms. Its difficult to distinguish why one gas appears in breath.
Do you come across many patients with TMAU? or patients that you cannot determine the cause of or to be able to cure them?
TMAU patients usualy go other specialists because halitosis is not first symptom. I have not examined or treated such patient before.

Yes there are patients that I cannot determine the cause of their halitosis. Somes were poor people they can not get computerized tomograpghies, or somes were type 5 patients who did not belive me about their psychological problem, or who had had operated few times from their nose. Somes were very complex cases such as elderly people (>80 yo) who regulary use 8 drugs /day.

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Post by halitosisux »

Thanks for the reply.. I dont really know that much about breath diagnostic tests, never went to any breath clinics or ever had anything measured. I was in no doubts about my breath status. I never imagined my cause could turn out to be something so simple. I knew it was coming from my tongue and nowhere else (at the time). I had no nasal odour.
The reason why I am asking all these questions is because I basically wanted to know if it was ever possible to be able to absolutely rule out type 5 cases. I guess from what you say with what equipment is available, that this is still not yet possible.

Aydinmur do you ever come across cases where nothing obvious seems to be wrong with sinuses, even after examination by an ENT, but then after more thorough examination the bad breath is found to be originating from a problem in the sinuses?

Have you ever come across patients where really bad room-filling odours get released only when a person sneezes? At other times there is no odour. There must surely be some connection to this phenomenon and the nasal odours that many people on here are plagued with - assuming that the sneeze odours do actually come from the sinuses, because no one with this strange phenomemon seems entirely sure.
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Post by aydinmur »

halitosisux wrote:...Aydinmur do you ever come across cases where nothing obvious seems to be wrong with sinuses, even after examination by an ENT, but then after more thorough examination the bad breath is found to be originating from a problem in the sinuses?
Yes. Very often.
Ear-Nose-Throat specialists (ENT) usually say "normal" for many of halitosis patients.
Have you ever come across patients where really bad room-filling odours get released only when a person sneezes? At other times there is no odour.
May be type 2, If a person feels bad odour when (s)he sneezed.
I often see concha bullosa with their nose.
ENT says bullous concha is a minor deviation in connective tissue between physiologic limits, it is not a pathology.

However, I have dozens halitosis patients who they are healed after their bullous concha was cauterizated by another ENT specialist.

Secondly, I see sinusitis if bad odor appears after sneezing. Waters, submentovertex, caldwel radiograpies are not adequate. Computerized tomography and magnetic reosnance needed. Third, inflamation in ethmoid celullae.

I remember one of my patients 11 yo girl. Her parent and her teacher suffered from strong bad odor after sneezing. This odor was ending lesson if she is in classrom when she sneezed. Odorimetrik measurements pointed type 2 case. Paranasal sinus tomography was normal. ENT doctor said nothing wrong with this girl. Magnetic resonance showed a plastic toy piece in a diameter of 4.5 mm (button shape) it locates left maxillar sinus cavity floor. ENT specialist removed the toy piece in 5 minutes. Odor disappeared of course. :-)
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Post by halitosisux »

Incredible to think that such a small piece of plastic sitting inside the sinus could have gone completely undetected and remain asymptomatic except for the odour. That the odour when sneezing was strong enough to cause a room evacuation! This was with standard x-ray tomography showing nothing abnormal either.

Ethmoid cellulae - does this involve the Ethmoid sinuses? Attention always seems to be focused on the maxillary sinuses, but there are these other sinus cavities and these could well be getting overlooked.

If I still had BB and everything was pointing to a type 2 case of BB, I would want to know WHERE and WHY this odour is happening inside my nose.

Can you diagnose whether odour is originating within the nasal cavities, separate of any type 1 odour that may be of a subsequence of a type 2?
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Post by aydinmur »

halitosisux wrote: If I still had BB and everything was pointing to a type 2 case of BB, I would want to know WHERE and WHY this odour is happening inside my nose.
Ecology...
Ecology is the key.
-ANY-thing that alters ecology can start bad odor. Anaerobic bacteria are invated there, mucus are secreted, bacteria begin to produce bad smell if that tissue lost its original ecology. Neither antiseptics nor herbals can stationary prevent bad odor. Standard radiographies may not show problem, if problem is very big. Always CT or MR should be taken from type 2 suscpected patients.
Can you diagnose whether odour is originating within the nasal cavities, separate of any type 1 odour that may be of a subsequence of a type 2?
Some ways to separate type 1 and 2 halitosis :
- some questions give evidence before examination
- gas measuremets from mouth and nose, before/after zinc, during expiration/inspiration.
- to detect sulphur content with <censor> solution dropping on collected saliva in a separate dish.
(I hide the above chemical substance, because its very toxic)

- Murat Aydin
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Post by halitosisux »

Aydinmur, thanx for reply.
From what you say, I understand that type 1 cases, if not caused by obvious factors such as dehydration, bad teeth or gums etc, that type 1 cases can also be exclusively a symptom of type 2 and possibly type 3 cases.
I understand how your techniques can isolate a type 2 case, irrespective of whether a type 1 case exists or not. Can you also separate a type 2 case in the presense of type 4, and possibly type 3 and type 1 cases?

If I had BB and someone could prove to me that odours were actually being produced inside my nasal cavities, I would not rest until somebody was able to tell me WHY this is so. Surely there cannot be any medical reason why odours should be produced inside the nose, other than a localized problem directly affecting the situation within the nose itself, such as infections, poor drainage/aspiration, foreign bodies/structural abnormalities, tissue damage etc etc.
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Post by aydinmur »

halitosisux wrote:From what you say, I understand that type 1 cases, if not caused by obvious factors such as dehydration, bad teeth or gums etc, that type 1 cases can also be exclusively a symptom of type 2 and possibly type 3 cases.

I did not say this. Possibly misunderstanging because of my bad English. If halitosis takes origin from tongue or mouth it is type 1 halitosis independently from its reason.

Can you also separate a type 2 case in the presense of type 4, and possibly type 3 and type 1 cases?
Its difficult separete Type 3 and 5 from others with use only halitometric measurements. But separation of type 2 and 4 cases is possible with halitometer. Person may have type 2 or type 4 or both halitosis. Sometimes may have more halitosis type 2+4+5.

Example for type 4 case: 130 150 125 100 120. (such as TMAU)
Example for type 2 case: 130 110 124 150 135
Example for type 2+4 case: 130 150 124 150 165
Here type 1+2+4 case: 130 150 40 150 165


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