Problem with Dr. Aydin's Type 1 Classification

[Phantasist]

Below is Dr. Aydin Murat's Type 1 cause of bad breath:

Type 1 - Bad breath that takes its origin from the tongue dorsum (back of the tongue) or other tongue disorders (black tongue), bacterial imbalance of the mouth, cavities, gum disease, bio-film formation in the oral cavity. Food residue is ingested and turned into an aromatic gaseous waste called volatile sulfur compound (VSC) by anaerobic bacteria present in vast numbers between the tongues papillae (taste buds), mucus, and bio-film.

Dr. Aydin Murat throws a bunch of causes together into one category, including "bacterial imbalance of the mouth". Yes, but what is causing the bacterial imbalance? This should be in a separate category. After all, a dentist could easily see cavities, gum disease, black tongue and maybe even bio-film, but he could hardly diagnose bacterial imbalance.
Secondly the part about food residue is a red herring. I have bad breath even when I eat no food whatsoever. How can the anaerobic bacteria turn non-existent food into volatile sulfur compounds?

I think we need a much deeper insight into this category than we have so far.

[aydinmur]

Dr. Aydin Murat throws a bunch of causes together into one category, including "bacterial imbalance of the mouth". Yes, but what is causing the bacterial imbalance?

Ecologic shift causes bacterial imbalance..

I have bad breath even when I eat no food whatsoever. How can the anaerobic bacteria turn non-existent food into volatile sulfur compounds?

I would like to tell some points here:

(1) Vsc is not the unique volatil compound in halitosis. There are more than 3 dozens chemical compound are relased in a mouth. They contain neither sulphur nor vsc. Believe me, you dont want to smell any of them..

(2) During fasting, the dominant odors take origin from B-hydroxybutiric acid, isovaleric, valeric acids, metanol, aseton or other carbohydrate or fat breaking products, benzeneacetic acid, toluic acid, but NOT vsc.

(3) Bacteria dont need your food. Your saliva contains rich protein sources (phosphoproteins, albumins, many serum globulins). They obtain proteins with break your epitel cells, gingival fluids, dead bacterial cells, dead immun cells, submucosal gland secretions.

Hope helps
- Murat

[Bishop]

(3) Bacteria dont need your food. Your saliva contains rich protein sources (phosphoproteins, albumins, many serum globulins). They obtain proteins with break your epitel cells, gingival fluids, dead bacterial cells, dead immun cells, submucosal gland secretions.

Hope helps
- Murat

And even your gums contains enough proteins for them to fest on which may lead to periodontal disease.

[Phantasist]

Dr. Murat,
All of the above, (1) (2) and (3), would have to be true for everybody's mouth. In no way does it explain why some of us have an overgrowth of anaerobic bacteria (with no apparent reason in evidence), no matter what we do or eat, and other people never have bad breath/overgrowth of bacteria no matter what they do or eat.

[aydinmur]

In no way does it explain why some of us have an overgrowth of anaerobic bacteria (with no apparent reason in evidence),

Dear Phantasist,

Every biologic occurence have at least one reason. If anaerobic bacteria growth on a mucosal surface , be sure there are one or more reasons. Ecology invites them.

I would like to share one patient's status with you.
22 years old a lady suffers from halitosis since last 4 years. Initial value 123 ppb, Cystein enhances her halitosis upto 1030 ppb, it decrease to 90 ppb with zinc cloride solution. This is typically Type 1 case. In other words, anaerobic overgrowth in her mouth with your terminology.

She was using piercing on her tongue. She removed metalic balls from her tongue, halitosis meaningful decreased after 3 weeks. Then completely healed fourth week. I did nothing. !
What happened?
Ecology changed.!

One more case to answer your question.
15 yo boy suffers halitosis. Suddenly disappeared after orthodontic wires and brackets were attached his teeth.
What happened?
Ecology changed.!

Hope understand its mechanisms?
- Murat

[john]

so my toothfillings (amalgan) could be the problem?
what will happen if i replace them for white composite fillings?
(excuse me for my english)

[aydinmur]

so my toothfillings (amalgan) could be the problem? what will happen if i replace them for white composite fillings?

You dont need to change them. Metals dont smell.
-Murat

[trouble]

yes, but the tongue jewelry of your patient didn't smell either, nor did the brackets of the other patient. and you wrote, that it affected the mouth-ecology and it turned normal again by removing those items .

so it sounds quite logical that the amalgam could affect ecology too?

[Phantasist]

With all due respect to Dr. Aydin Murat, I don't believe for one minute that mercury amalgam or any other metal in your mouth such as braces can either cause bad breath or remove it. Bad breath is simply not caused by metal. Please use logic. If it were, every kid with braces on his teeth would have to have bad breath - and that is simply not the case. Dr. Murat's case history that a 14-year old boy's bad breath disappeared when braces were put on his teeth makes no sense whatsoever. I'm no microbiologist (or any kind of scientist), but I know that things still have to make sense. (And besides, I've heard enough crazy talk from doctors who didn't know what the hell they were talking about)

[sadman]

Phantasist:

Dr. Murat's case history that a 14-year old boy's bad breath disappeared when braces were put on his teeth makes no sense whatsoever.

I think this might explain Dr. Murat's 14 y.o boy's case and the role of SIgA in the oral ecology :

The average values of SIgA in the saliva
of the healthy children (third group) are 121,34 ±15,027 μg/
ml. For children with diabetes (first group) the average
quantities of SIgA in the saliva are 133,95±160,504 μg/ml,
close to those of the control group. Due to the initial
phase of diabetes development, the system endocrine
disease seems not to influence the local secretory oral
immunity. Children with asthma exhibit statistically
verifiable higher quantities of IgA-S (196,456±145,308 μg/
ml), compared to the healthy children (P<0,05). The average
values of SIgA in children with orthodontic apparatuses
are even higher (208,874±125,953 μg/ml). The results can
be explained by the stimulating action of the plastic
apparatus, alien to the oral environment or by the
conditions created in the mouth that lead to more difficult
maintenance of the oral hygiene, thus enforcing the
bacterial antigenic stimulus.

[halitosisux]

If I had to guess on this, I'd guess that it was more to do with chemisty and the metals. Think about what silver can do.

Regarding IgA, would there not be an established link between IgA and chronic halitosis if there was one? Is there one?

Aydinmur said in another thread:-
"IgA level restricts some bacteria but not all.
IgA is not unique key of oral immun status."

It is mainly the oxygen carried in saliva that ensures that anaerobic bacteria is kept mainly in the "designated" anaerobic areas such as the carpet of the tongue papillae.

So of course, when saliva flow reduces then the whole mouth becomes an anaerobic breeding ground and people who do not normally have BB will quickly do so.

I still say that the cause of the buildup of odour on the back of the tongue has nothing to do with what we're led to believe - that just because we happen to have a bacterial carpet there where odours build up, that this is where the odour must be produced.
I am an example of this being completely untrue. In my case it was an odour coming from somewhere else, and my tongue just happened to be the most highly absorbant surface for which odourous chemicals became absorbed onto like a stinking sponge.

That's why when you happen to have BB and you eat certain foods and it mixes with that skank on this absorbant surface, it gives the impression that it makes your BB worse (which it probably does) but my point it its purely because of that absorbant surface.

That's also why people who dont have BB can eat anything and the smell of that food doesnt linger like it does for people with BB.

Its exactly the same for tonsils too. They smell because the rest of your mouth smells. It is NOT the source of the odour, even if it appears that it must be - this has been proven so many times by people having tonsillectomies and finding that they still have BB.

How many times do we hear of people with BB and nasal odours, getting relief from nasal irrigations. Why would that happen unless there was something wrong up there? It only took a small amount of discharge from an area of gum in my mouth, so the same thing can happen in the nasal area too.

[aues]

Its exactly the same for tonsils too. They smell because the rest of your mouth smells. It is NOT the source of the odour, even if it appears that it must be - this has been proven so many times by people having tonsillectomies and finding that they still have BB.

That doesn't apply for every halitosis patient.
There are also people whose halitosis originated from the tonsils. After tonsillectomy they were cured.
And I hope that I am going to be one of those people.

[Phantasist]

Sadman,
It makes sense that the braces on teeth might cause a slight increase in saliva flow.
It also sounds reasonable that the braces make oral hygiene more difficult thereby possibly causing an increase in the anaerobic bacteria population which in turn might cause an increase in SIgA as an immune response.
But I would think that the effects are slight, and I doubt that they can defeat chronic bad breath.
In fact, if this actually worked, all we would have to do is stop all our oral hygiene and just wait for the immune response to kick in, and good bye bad breath!

[aydinmur]

Sadman,
It makes sense that the braces on teeth might cause a slight increase in saliva flow.
It also sounds reasonable that the braces make oral hygiene more difficult thereby possibly causing an increase in the anaerobic bacteria population which in turn might cause an increase in SIgA as an immune response.

I suspect, metals enhance Eh potential in mouth. This is unfavor to odorigenic bacteria

-M

[halitosisux]

aues, I had my tonsils out in 1997. Prior to this I would have bet my life on my tonsils being the cause of my BB. They were producing stones every single day and a constant skanky discharge into my throat. Whenever I breathed out through my nose with my mouth closed, I could clearly taste (smell) the gunk from back there. If I moved my tongue around at the same time the odour intensified. I never suspected that I had any nasal odours and was assured that I didnt by my brother - But I probably did.
When I had the tonsils out that odour completely stopped. Yet my tongue still stunk just like before and so did my breath. A few years later I found a source of odour in my mouth (wisdom tooth/gum) and eventually got it dealt with and no more BB or odour buildup on my tongue.

There hasnt been a single person that I know of in the year and a half since I found this forum who got cured from a tonsillectomy.

People who are not sure about whether they actually have bad breath or not, but who know for sure that their tonsils smell and get the horrible smell up their nose when they breath out like I described, and then have tonsillectomies and this horrible smell stops, are gonna think their BB has stopped. ENT's give us false hope because they too are totally mistaken with the tonsil and BB connection.

Obviously if a tonsil itself is infected or very large, then it might be releasing blood and god knows what else and be solely responsible for the BB.

I am convinced that normal sized crypted tonsils smell because the rest of the mouth smells and for no other reason. I've even read somewhere that tonsils stones are the condensed gas from having bad breath.