Does it not all originate with the tongue?

[poco333]

great post, but I disagree in bleach. Get a pure one and use only 2 drops on 1 glass of water, gargle....bleach is in pools, they use it in dentistry....from my opinion it has no sideeffects in small doses....much better than halitomafia scam mouthwash that will really ***k you up totally

Thank you Jimi. the halitomafia sure had me screwed up for a lot of years (or at least they sure didn't help). I hear you on the bleach but I will admit I was not doing a very good job of "diluting." People are probably getting tired of hearing about copper but, in my opinion, bleach is absolutely nothing in comparison. There is something about copper that cuts right to the Achilles heal of bb bugs. And as far as I can tell, it has zero bad side effects.

[Jimi Stein]

i have no tonsils, they were removed when I was just 2 yo. I also suspect the tongue and how rough it is. You cant say people who have bad breath have white tongue, cause smokers have horrible tongues.
I suspect that the tongue structure is not normal compared to other people, OR we do not have any measures to kill of thos bacteria in our mouth. Our saliva can't combat the excess of bad bacterias, that is why the halitomafia halitometer shows a reading over 40, which already shows bad breath

[mauricio]

It is not just tongue but throat too....use a dental mirror and check your throat, it has white patches most probably of this sulphur buildups, and it is impossible to reach.

That don't make no sense, I'd not go bb free on a low FODMAP diet if those 'buildups' were responsible for my bb. It's coming from the gut and you get the impression it's coming from throat/tongue, I know it too well myself, I thought the same up till last year basically.

[mauricio]

i have no tonsils, they were removed when I was just 2 yo. I also suspect the tongue and how rough it is. You cant say people who have bad breath have white tongue, cause smokers have horrible tongues.
I suspect that the tongue structure is not normal compared to other people, OR we do not have any measures to kill of thos bacteria in our mouth. Our saliva can't combat the excess of bad bacterias, that is why the halitomafia halitometer shows a reading over 40, which already shows bad breath

If that were the case then halitomafia products woud work cause they neutralize VSC compunds in the mouth, problem is the fumes are obviously not coming from the mouth.

[poco333]

i have no tonsils, they were removed when I was just 2 yo. I also suspect the tongue and how rough it is. You cant say people who have bad breath have white tongue, cause smokers have horrible tongues.
I suspect that the tongue structure is not normal compared to other people, OR we do not have any measures to kill of thos bacteria in our mouth. Our saliva can't combat the excess of bad bacterias, that is why the halitomafia halitometer shows a reading over 40, which already shows bad breath

If that were the case then halitomafia products woud work cause they neutralize VSC compunds in the mouth, problem is the fumes are obviously not coming from the mouth.

Jimi I agree. The color of the tongue does not necessarily equate bb. I know many smokers and none of them have unhealthy looking tongues (you can just see when people talk). I think the "geography" of the tongue is the most tell tale aspect, the color not so much. I have seen people with baby smooth tongues that are often white, but they have no bb. The white color in that case is probably just like a coating of film or a dry mouth. People with rough, geographic, hairy, etc tongues in my opinion are seeing the "effect" of the infection of BB critters in the tissue of the tongue. The rough, geographic, hairy, etc tongue is not the cause--the tongue didn't used to be that way. I have never seen a baby with a rough looking tongue.

Mauricio I respectfully disagree. Once these halitosis bacteria or whatever gain a stronghold in the tissue of the tongue, it seems to be very very difficult to get rid of them. The halitomafia products are worthless, it takes much different measures to make an impact for us chronic people. I guess I would liken it to gastrointestinal problems in the sense that once tissues in the gut have been ruined, it is like there is no going back--people that develop gut problems seem to be stuck with them for the rest of their lives, all they can do is mitigate, but they never go back to the way they "used" to be. You often hear of people having however many feet of their large intestine removed because there is no way to heal the damaged tissue. I think this condition with the tongue is very similar--it is very very difficult to reverse, but I'm hoping it is not impossible.
Again I wish there was a way for people to post pictures of their tongues on here, because a healthy tongue should be pink and bald looking and smooth, like a baby's, all the way back to the little bumps which are basically at the throat.

I also realize there are always exceptions. Maybe some rare cases of bb are linked directly to the gut. If I saw a picture of that persons mouth and could clearly see the back of the tongue and throat and everything looked healthy and baby smooth, then you would have me convinced. If a case of bb was linked to the gut, why wouldn't an extreme change in diet fix the problem? I will also admit that the flora occupying our bodies (mostly in a mutually beneficial manner) are directly affected by what we eat. I tried different diets for a while and the one that did make a difference was the no carb diet, as it probably starved many of the "bad" bb critters. I tried that diet for about two weeks but it made me feel terrible, except for my mouth and tongue, which seemed to be returning to a healthier state (but far from a cure). Anyways my point is that I really think 99% of chronic halitosis originates with the tongue

[poco333]

There are perhaps multiple root causes of different types of chronic halitosis.

Depending on which kind you have, perhaps you wanna run a test.

Thoroughly Scrape your tongue and brush your teeth. Rinse thoroughly with water and take a saliva sample from your dorsum (gently scratching the surface of your dorsum, let it dry and smell it). And it will probably have minimum to no smell. This is will certify the minimum amount tongue role in the breath odor.

Now take a sample of your breath through a Helimter, and see the amount of odor and contents coming out from your lungs?

Perhaps repeat this test a few times in different days and at different times to collect some data and reach a better result?

In my opinion, the accumulation of odorous bacteria and it's explosive growth on the tongue is only the side effect.

The obnoxious odorous gas compounds that are picked by our blood from the gut and then are left untreated in our blood (for whatever genetic disorder we have) are dumped into our lungs. And then we we breath out, some of these odorous compounds are left on the dorsum. And from there it grows explosively.
So when we talk, the odorous air from the lungs, combined with the sh!t that accumulates on our tongues, creates this miserable hell for us.

I hear where you are coming from, I really do, but experience has taught me otherwise. I used to chase these theories around something terrible. I finally had to grapple with the fact that the tongue was the root cause and focus on that. Copper sulfate is the only thing I have ever found that actually works. I can actually live and interact like a normal person now.

I understand that you guys want to clean the tongue, do a test, and conclude that it is not the tongue. But what is really happening there is that all that bad stuff that is originating at the tongue is leaching to other close areas to the tongue (but cannot thrive in those areas) and also all of the odorous bb gasses have saturated the lungs (but are not originating there). So you "clean" the tongue and quickly do a test for VSC's that are still heavily present in the throat and lungs, but originated from the tongue. The other thing that is happening is you are cleaning the very top surface of the tongue but all of those terrible bb bugs are still present and thriving in the tissue of the tongue, generating VSC's even as you clean and the moment you are done "cleaning." Halimeter readings do not change with the flick of the wrist, it is rather a very gradual change, from one hour to the next.

To say when we "breathe out, some of these odorous compounds are left on the dorsum. And from there it grows explosively" I really think is incorrect. It may be that some bacteria are introduced to our tongue that way, but if they are present in the body anyways than that is inconsequential. Odorous compounds from the lungs making contact with the tongue is not what causes halitosis--this is not what causes the tongue to go from healthy to unhealthy. What causes the tongue to become unhealthy is stress. When human beings are in "flight" mode their mouths become dry and the back of the tongue becomes a breeding ground for bad stuff. If this condition is prolonged, eventually that "bad stuff" takes hold in the tissue of the tongue, and from there it is game over. I don't mean to drift into evolution vs creation or any of that, but this would seem a very effective way for mother nature to "cull" the humans that are not thriving.
On the flip side, I would argue that there is also a more modern cause for the downfall of the tongue and chronic halitosis, and that is the powerful antibiotics that are so heavily abused in our modern world, from the food we eat to the drugs we are prescribed. These powerful antibiotics can kill off the normal and good microorganisms in our body and make it much easier for the bad stuff to take hold. Just do google search for Flagyl and hairy tongue.

[mauricio]

Mauricio I respectfully disagree. Once these halitosis bacteria or whatever gain a stronghold in the tissue of the tongue, it seems to be very very difficult to get rid of them.

I also realize there are always exceptions. Maybe some rare cases of bb are linked directly to the gut.

False, please explain how changes in the sulfate transport affect our bb (see other recent thread) if this is caused by 'stronghold in the tissue of the tongue', also please provide serious links to back the 'rare cases' claim, this forum alone is a strong indicator of GI issues.

people that develop gut problems seem to be stuck with them for the rest of their lives, all they can do is mitigate, but they never go back to the way they "used" to be.

False, several gut issues can be totally reversed.

If a case of bb was linked to the gut, why wouldn't an extreme change in diet fix the problem?

'Extreme change in diet' do fix the problem, hell even taking plain apple cider vinegar reduces it big time, do you happen to know why?
Also have you ever heard of fasting? Please explain how people have had their bb solved by fasting, no direct action in taken towards their tongues.

[mauricio]

I understand that you guys want to clean the tongue, do a test, and conclude that it is not the tongue. But what is really happening there is that all that bad stuff that is originating at the tongue is leaching to other close areas to the tongue (but cannot thrive in those areas) and also all of the odorous bb gasses have saturated the lungs (but are not originating there). So you "clean" the tongue and quickly do a test for VSC's that are still heavily present in the throat and lungs, but originated from the tongue. The other thing that is happening is you are cleaning the very top surface of the tongue but all of those terrible bb bugs are still present and thriving in the tissue of the tongue, generating VSC's even as you clean and the moment you are done "cleaning." Halimeter readings do not change with the flick of the wrist, it is rather a very gradual change, from one hour to the next.

Please refrain from posting this total madness, it's plain ridiculous and you don't have skills to bring forward this absurd claims, people read this forum and they need help not other people divert them on personal hunches.
You are literally playing into halitomafia stories of halitometers, VSCs and tongues. This needs to stop.

[mauricio]

Also, do you know what a low FODMAP diet is? It makes many bb sufferers bb free, me included, do you know the reason why? My guess is you don't and I can assure you it has nothing to do with tongues.

[Jimi Stein]

great post, but I disagree in bleach. Get a pure one and use only 2 drops on 1 glass of water, gargle....bleach is in pools, they use it in dentistry....from my opinion it has no sideeffects in small doses....much better than halitomafia scam mouthwash that will really ***k you up totally

Thank you Jimi. the halitomafia sure had me screwed up for a lot of years (or at least they sure didn't help). I hear you on the bleach but I will admit I was not doing a very good job of "diluting." People are probably getting tired of hearing about copper but, in my opinion, bleach is absolutely nothing in comparison. There is something about copper that cuts right to the Achilles heal of bb bugs. And as far as I can tell, it has zero bad side effects.

can you link to a product on amazon, I might try it out, for me bleach is the go to thing for years now, no sideeffects at all....

[Jimi Stein]

Mauricio I respectfully disagree. Once these halitosis bacteria or whatever gain a stronghold in the tissue of the tongue, it seems to be very very difficult to get rid of them.

I also realize there are always exceptions. Maybe some rare cases of bb are linked directly to the gut.

False, please explain how changes in the sulfate transport affect our bb (see other recent thread) if this is caused by 'stronghold in the tissue of the tongue', also please provide serious links to back the 'rare cases' claim, this forum alone is a strong indicator of GI issues.

people that develop gut problems seem to be stuck with them for the rest of their lives, all they can do is mitigate, but they never go back to the way they "used" to be.

False, several gut issues can be totally reversed.

If a case of bb was linked to the gut, why wouldn't an extreme change in diet fix the problem?

'Extreme change in diet' do fix the problem, hell even taking plain apple cider vinegar reduces it big time, do you happen to know why?
Also, have you ever heard of fasting? Please explain how people have had their bb solved by fasting, no direct action in taken towards their tongues.

damn, I am not good at quoting several posts at the same time...lol and been using this site for 16 years....

but gut problems can be reversed with diet, if you go vegan diet, many problems go away....otherwise if you eat heavy meat diet, lots of fat they might just cut out your intestine and you get a little baggy, also licker can cause that....vegan from my experience contains disease it makes you feel better and the advance of disease stops....

but I agree with the tongue guy..lots of stuff are really what he claims and I believe in it....
I was also scraping my tongue with Gilette razers to try to get that hair off...dunno how much it helped....
it could be that the tongue has these deep cravities where bacteria hide....nobody did any tests apparently and study the tongue of a corpse who had halitosis before ...this should be done

[poco333]

Mauricio I respectfully disagree. Once these halitosis bacteria or whatever gain a stronghold in the tissue of the tongue, it seems to be very very difficult to get rid of them.

I also realize there are always exceptions. Maybe some rare cases of bb are linked directly to the gut.

False, please explain how changes in the sulfate transport affect our bb (see other recent thread) if this is caused by 'stronghold in the tissue of the tongue', also please provide serious links to back the 'rare cases' claim, this forum alone is a strong indicator of GI issues.

people that develop gut problems seem to be stuck with them for the rest of their lives, all they can do is mitigate, but they never go back to the way they "used" to be.

False, several gut issues can be totally reversed.

If a case of bb was linked to the gut, why wouldn't an extreme change in diet fix the problem?

'Extreme change in diet' do fix the problem, hell even taking plain apple cider vinegar reduces it big time, do you happen to know why?
Also have you ever heard of fasting? Please explain how people have had their bb solved by fasting, no direct action in taken towards their tongues.

The reason those diets help is that they starve the halitosis bacteria or whatever that are in the mouth. They seem to thrive on sugars and other more complex carbs. I said myself that the no carb diet worked for me, but I was never able to stick with it long enough for any solutions, the condition always returned.

[mauricio]

The reason those diets help is that they starve the halitosis bacteria or whatever that are in the mouth. They seem to thrive on sugars and other more complex carbs. I said myself that the no carb diet worked for me, but I was never able to stick with it long enough for any solutions, the condition always returned.

nope, good try tho. actually not but I always wanted to say it
do you even know what a low FODMAP is without having to google it?

[poco333]

great post, but I disagree in bleach. Get a pure one and use only 2 drops on 1 glass of water, gargle....bleach is in pools, they use it in dentistry....from my opinion it has no sideeffects in small doses....much better than halitomafia scam mouthwash that will really ***k you up totally

Thank you Jimi. the halitomafia sure had me screwed up for a lot of years (or at least they sure didn't help). I hear you on the bleach but I will admit I was not doing a very good job of "diluting." People are probably getting tired of hearing about copper but, in my opinion, bleach is absolutely nothing in comparison. There is something about copper that cuts right to the Achilles heal of bb bugs. And as far as I can tell, it has zero bad side effects.

can you link to a product on amazon, I might try it out, for me bleach is the go to thing for years now, no sideeffects at all....

If you just search copper sulfate on amazon, lots will come up. Its used as an algaecide but also used in mineral supplements for livestock. I'm not trying to twist anybody's arm to try it I'm just saying that it is the only thing that has ever worked for me, it really seems to be curing me. I only discovered it recently. If anybody tries it be sure to read earlier post on it and BE SAFE! Here is link to one of them https://www.amazon.com/Copper-Sulfate-P ... 70&sr=8-22 . Something else a person could try is to get a bottle of copper supplement tablets at GNC (this would be chelated copper). Crush maybe 4 of them and rub into back of tongue, try to spit half of it out, but let it be in contact with back of tongue for as long as possible.

[mauricio]

Reminds me of when I was 20ish and was dissolving vitC tablets in my mouth cause they made it pinker