Does it not all originate with the tongue?

[KL123]

If you just search copper sulfate on amazon, lots will come up. Its used as an algaecide but also used in mineral supplements for livestock. I'm not trying to twist anybody's arm to try it I'm just saying that it is the only thing that has ever worked for me, it really seems to be curing me. I only discovered it recently. If anybody tries it be sure to read earlier post on it and BE SAFE! Here is link to one of them https://www.amazon.com/Copper-Sulfate-P ... 70&sr=8-22 . Something else a person could try is to get a bottle of copper supplement tablets at GNC (this would be chelated copper). Crush maybe 4 of them and rub into back of tongue, try to spit half of it out, but let it be in contact with back of tongue for as long as possible.

How is using copper sulfate on the tongue and mouth to kill the odorous bacteria any different than using any other good mouth wash or bleach?

In either case, the bacteria starts to grow back and breath starts to stink if you don't stay on top of it.

So again copper sulfate seems like just another way of masking the problem but not really curing it or attacking the root cause.

The excessive production of this odorous bacteria and gasses is the cause... sh!t pilling up on the tongue is only the end effect.

Instead of copper sulfate, scrape the tongue, brush teeth and put a drop or two of Hibiclens on the dorsum and see if it's equally good instead of taking the risk with copper sulfate.

[KL123]

There are perhaps multiple root causes of different types of chronic halitosis.

Depending on which kind you have, perhaps you wanna run a test.

Thoroughly Scrape your tongue and brush your teeth. Rinse thoroughly with water and take a saliva sample from your dorsum (gently scratching the surface of your dorsum, let it dry and smell it). And it will probably have minimum to no smell. This is will certify the minimum amount tongue role in the breath odor.

Now take a sample of your breath through a Helimter, and see the amount of odor and contents coming out from your lungs?

Perhaps repeat this test a few times in different days and at different times to collect some data and reach a better result?

In my opinion, the accumulation of odorous bacteria and it's explosive growth on the tongue is only the side effect.

The obnoxious odorous gas compounds that are picked by our blood from the gut and then are left untreated in our blood (for whatever genetic disorder we have) are dumped into our lungs. And then we we breath out, some of these odorous compounds are left on the dorsum. And from there it grows explosively.
So when we talk, the odorous air from the lungs, combined with the sh!t that accumulates on our tongues, creates this miserable hell for us.

I hear where you are coming from, I really do, but experience has taught me otherwise. I used to chase these theories around something terrible. I finally had to grapple with the fact that the tongue was the root cause and focus on that. Copper sulfate is the only thing I have ever found that actually works. I can actually live and interact like a normal person now.

I understand that you guys want to clean the tongue, do a test, and conclude that it is not the tongue. But what is really happening there is that all that bad stuff that is originating at the tongue is leaching to other close areas to the tongue (but cannot thrive in those areas) and also all of the odorous bb gasses have saturated the lungs (but are not originating there). So you "clean" the tongue and quickly do a test for VSC's that are still heavily present in the throat and lungs, but originated from the tongue. The other thing that is happening is you are cleaning the very top surface of the tongue but all of those terrible bb bugs are still present and thriving in the tissue of the tongue, generating VSC's even as you clean and the moment you are done "cleaning." Halimeter readings do not change with the flick of the wrist, it is rather a very gradual change, from one hour to the next.

To say when we "breathe out, some of these odorous compounds are left on the dorsum. And from there it grows explosively" I really think is incorrect. It may be that some bacteria are introduced to our tongue that way, but if they are present in the body anyways than that is inconsequential. Odorous compounds from the lungs making contact with the tongue is not what causes halitosis--this is not what causes the tongue to go from healthy to unhealthy. What causes the tongue to become unhealthy is stress. When human beings are in "flight" mode their mouths become dry and the back of the tongue becomes a breeding ground for bad stuff. If this condition is prolonged, eventually that "bad stuff" takes hold in the tissue of the tongue, and from there it is game over. I don't mean to drift into evolution vs creation or any of that, but this would seem a very effective way for mother nature to "cull" the humans that are not thriving.
On the flip side, I would argue that there is also a more modern cause for the downfall of the tongue and chronic halitosis, and that is the powerful antibiotics that are so heavily abused in our modern world, from the food we eat to the drugs we are prescribed. These powerful antibiotics can kill off the normal and good microorganisms in our body and make it much easier for the bad stuff to take hold. Just do google search for Flagyl and hairy tongue.

Lets apply your logic to your own method of using copper sulfate.

You have cleaned your tongue with copper sulfate, and you claim that it helps but as per your theory, cleaning the tongue still leaves sh!t in other areas of the mouth areas, lungs pallet, esophagus etc, so the mouth still stinks because halimeter picks up sh!t.

And if this is true then taking a halimeter reading right after using copper sulfate should still pick a significant amount of odor - which means copper sulfate is not doing the job or it's equally worse as any other method because we can't clean our lungs and esophagus with copper sulfate.

[Dead]

I can't believe there's still people talking about tongues in this forum.

Did you ever consider the possibility that there are actually many different causes of bb? And just because yours originate from the gut that doesn't mean it can't originate from the tongue for others here? I know for a fact that my tongue smells horrid and is the main origin of my bb, and i'm far from the only one.

[mauricio]

I can't believe there's still people talking about tongues in this forum.

Did you ever consider the possibility that there are actually many different causes of bb? And just because yours originate from the gut that doesn't mean it can't originate from the tongue for others here? I know for a fact that my tongue smells horrid and is the main origin of my bb, and i'm far from the only one.

First of all I myself was convinced for years that my bb originated from the tongue, those gases are extremely deceitful to how we perceive their source. The arguments that the people who believe their bb is coming from their tongue are very weak imho; some kind of antibiotics resistance due to bacteria 'hiding' in deep recesses, I don't recall reading anything scientific to back up these theories, I know about bacteria resistance to antibiotics but this is a totally different phenomenon. There's people in here who literally put bleach on their tongues, with hardly any success. None at all I'd say. Also, hate to say it but the halitomafia products do act on VSCs in the mouth, I felt much fresher when I used them but it was only temporary of course cause it wasn't about having my tongue cleaned from those compounds. And this is where I think people get wrong ideas; normal people who don't suffer from bb have good results from a mouthwash that neutralizes VSCs, so bb sufferers think they too, to a lesser extent, benefit from it but only to a lesser extent when the underlying issue is totally different.
There's a myriad of things that just are consistent with these theory and I've only listed a couple off the top of my head. Can you please tell me about wrapping your tongue and then tell me about you feel? Cause you should be bb free as long the tongue is wrapped but as you read then there's 'build-ups' in the throat, so you seen, it's no longer just the tongue but it's the throat, guess what? I went down that road too, unfortunately having my tonsils removed and still regretting it to this day. Can you tell me the number of people in here cured from bb following tonsillectomy? Zero.

[KL123]

I can't believe there's still people talking about tongues in this forum.

Did you ever consider the possibility that there are actually many different causes of bb? And just because yours originate from the gut that doesn't mean it can't originate from the tongue for others here? I know for a fact that my tongue smells horrid and is the main origin of my bb, and i'm far from the only one.

First of all I myself was convinced for years that my bb originated from the tongue, those gases are extremely deceitful to how we perceive their source. The arguments that the people who believe their bb is coming from their tongue are very weak imho; some kind of antibiotics resistance due to bacteria 'hiding' in deep recesses, I don't recall reading anything scientific to back up these theories, I know about bacteria resistance to antibiotics but this is a totally different phenomenon. There's people in here who literally put bleach on their tongues, with hardly any success. None at all I'd say. Also, hate to say it but the halitomafia products do act on VSCs in the mouth, I felt much fresher when I used them but it was only temporary of course cause it wasn't about having my tongue cleaned from those compounds. And this is where I think people get wrong ideas; normal people who don't suffer from bb have good results from a mouthwash that neutralizes VSCs, so bb sufferers think they too, to a lesser extent, benefit from it but only to a lesser extent when the underlying issue is totally different.
There's a myriad of things that just are consistent with these theory and I've only listed a couple off the top of my head. Can you please tell me about wrapping your tongue and then tell me about you feel? Cause you should be bb free as long the tongue is wrapped but as you read then there's 'build-ups' in the throat, so you seen, it's no longer just the tongue but it's the throat, guess what? I went down that road too, unfortunately having my tonsils removed and still regretting it to this day. Can you tell me the number of people in here cured from bb following tonsillectomy? Zero.

Gots to agree with it.
Sh!t pilling up on the tongue is only the effect. The root cause may be somewhere else.

Sometimes I feel that perhaps the amount of bacteria produced by our bodies is somewhat the same in people with chronic halitosis and those who do not suffer this dilemma.
Perhaps it's the KIND of bacteria that our system produces that stinks more when compared to the KIND of bacteria produced in healthy people that doesn't stink more?

So for example, the amount and quantity of bacteria sitting on our tongues and throats etc is somewhat the same as in healthy people, it's just that ours stink more and theirs dont.

Just like every human has his own unique odor and sniff dogs can easily identify it, our natural odor is stinky?

[HopefulOne]

Scrubbing/brushing my tongue (tung brush) with four different bacterial agents (cetylperidium, peroxide, chlorhexidine, sodium chlorite) actually worked for me. It took ALL four!!! Plus stopping all sugars and carbs (including fruit and beans) to not feed any remaining “bad” bacteria. My tongue is finally pink and I have zero morning breath! I’ve had bad breath over 40 yrs. and tried basically everything!!! Those with white tongues, please try this method. It worked for me! But remember you have to brush ALL of your tongue, way in the back until it meets your throat with each mouthwash! And NO sugar! Watch for hidden sugar in everything including salad dressing, ketchup, sauces etc. If you’re too skinny, eat lots of nuts!

[Dead]

I can't believe there's still people talking about tongues in this forum.

Did you ever consider the possibility that there are actually many different causes of bb? And just because yours originate from the gut that doesn't mean it can't originate from the tongue for others here? I know for a fact that my tongue smells horrid and is the main origin of my bb, and i'm far from the only one.

First of all I myself was convinced for years that my bb originated from the tongue, those gases are extremely deceitful to how we perceive their source. The arguments that the people who believe their bb is coming from their tongue are very weak imho; some kind of antibiotics resistance due to bacteria 'hiding' in deep recesses, I don't recall reading anything scientific to back up these theories, I know about bacteria resistance to antibiotics but this is a totally different phenomenon. There's people in here who literally put bleach on their tongues, with hardly any success. None at all I'd say. Also, hate to say it but the halitomafia products do act on VSCs in the mouth, I felt much fresher when I used them but it was only temporary of course cause it wasn't about having my tongue cleaned from those compounds. And this is where I think people get wrong ideas; normal people who don't suffer from bb have good results from a mouthwash that neutralizes VSCs, so bb sufferers think they too, to a lesser extent, benefit from it but only to a lesser extent when the underlying issue is totally different.
There's a myriad of things that just are consistent with these theory and I've only listed a couple off the top of my head. Can you please tell me about wrapping your tongue and then tell me about you feel? Cause you should be bb free as long the tongue is wrapped but as you read then there's 'build-ups' in the throat, so you seen, it's no longer just the tongue but it's the throat, guess what? I went down that road too, unfortunately having my tonsils removed and still regretting it to this day. Can you tell me the number of people in here cured from bb following tonsillectomy? Zero.

You can only speak for yourself. Your smell may come from elsewhere. You can't diagnose everyone here based on your own case. There are many different causes for this. If i do the lick test and it smells horrible then clearly the tongue smells bad. I can literally smell my own tongue. No diet or anything targeting the gut has ever affected my bb. Only things which targets the mouth. Secondly they have done studies on people with chronic bad breath and it showed that it almost always originates from the mouth. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19811581/

[mauricio]

I'm not basing my idea on my own case, there's scientific arguments to back up my suggestions.
I've read, at this point, hundreds of descriptions that fit a very common profile.
Of course bb can be caused by several issues, I'm not interested in the 2% or in the 0,001% that has some obscure diseases, chances are these people aren't even in here. I can't read the full version of the paper that you provided, that only 4% of bb sufferers have non-oral causes seems very unlikely to me to be honest. First of all I wonder how this sits with the tonsils(of all kind) brigade they have literally no part in it based on that paper, and yet there's people in here who'd swear to God their bb is caused by the tonsils, which is kind of funny since it reminds me of another category in here.
Anyways since the entire population of this forum is/was bb sufferers, apparently a simple visit to a oral clinic would cure 96% of users, meaning we have been living a nightmare, some for decades, for the only reasons of saving a few bucks? Otherwise what's stopping them/us to get it fixed at an oral clinic?
Also let me guess, the ones who did visit an oral clinic in here and didn't get it fixed are part of the 4%? But wouldn't they be told so from the get go at the clinic? Curious as to hear you take on this.
Also also, I didn't get over it targeting the gut, I pretty much did the opposite (of what positive-breath-testers do) targeting biological processes instead of killing bacterias.

[Dead]

If you search pubmed there are many papers like that. There was another study where they measured the gases in both the stomach and the mouth, and found there was no detectable smell in the stomach air, unlike the mouth.

Anyways since the entire population of this forum is/was bb sufferers, apparently a simple visit to a oral clinic would cure 96% of users, meaning we have been living a nightmare, some for decades, for the only reasons of saving a few bucks? Otherwise what's stopping them/us to get it fixed at an oral clinic?
Also let me guess, the ones who did visit an oral clinic in here and didn't get it fixed are part of the 4%? But wouldn't they be told so from the get go at the clinic? Curious as to hear you take on this.

Just because the smell is coming from the mouth doesn't mean it's easy to cure.It's possible some of us are just the unfortunate few who were either born with, or at some point acquired an oral microbiome which happens to produce a lot of VSC gases. Also even though the gases comes from within the mouth that doesn't mean the root cause must be oral. There could be some genetic defect, or an infection somewhere else, but close enough to the mouth that bacterias will accumulate there. Even things like SIBO and H.pylori infections can cause the tongue to smell.

[Taylor]

Poco333:

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm a newbie as well so I appreciate the time and effort that it took to share your journey with bb.

Over the years, I've tried just about every so called 'specialist' out there who claimed to have found the ultimate cure for bb. I've spent a lot of money on their products, only to be disappointed, time and time again. Most products I tried would eliminate about 70% of my bb, but of course as soon as you stopped using the product, my bb returned with a vengeance. So you were forced to keep sending these companies money, in the hopes that over time, my bb would eventually be cured. I don't want to name companies, but I'm not sure how they live with themselves, preying on people who are desperate to find a solution to their deeply painful and traumatic health issue.

I've tried Hydrogen Peroxide over the years, as a 2 hour relief for my bb. I would brush my teeth with H.P., tongue scrape, and then gargle for 2 minutes, scrape again. So for 2 hours I would have neutral breath, and for those 2 short hours I was on top of the world. But as soon as I ate, even the H.P. didn't work, so I'm absolutely convinced, for myself, that my bb is related to the back of my tongue, throat, and tonsil stones. I discovered a large tonsil stone years ago and am now pretty certain that I have many that are very hard to detect, even by my dentist.

I was convinced of the tongue/tonsil stone connection with my H.P. discovery. It just doesn't make sense that after brushing/gargling with H.P., the smell goes away for a few hours, if the back of the throat/tongue isn't an issue.

I'm learning that everyone's situation is unique, and all we can do is to share any new thoughts, discoveries, and or ideas.

[mauricio]

Just because the smell is coming from the mouth doesn't mean it's easy to cure

ahhhh I see it, so everyone in the study were the lucky ones, cause it doesn't say there were people who weren't cured eventually, but all the people in here are the unlucky ones, makes peeeeerfect sense.
Uncurable people in the study: 0
Uncurable peope in our forum: 1,000,000,000,000,000

It's possible some of us are just the unfortunate few who were either born with or at some point acquired an oral microbiome which happens to produce a lot of VSC gases. Also even though the gases comes from within the mouth that doesn't mean the root cause must be oral.
There could be some genetic defect, or an infection somewhere else, but close enough to the mouth that bacterias will accumulate there. Even things like SIBO and H.pylori infections can cause the tongue to smell.

'but close enough to the mouth that bacterias will accumulate'
QUOTE ME ONE PAPER, ONE, JUST ONE, ON THIS STATEMENT. ONE, I IMPLORE YOU.

There could be some genetic defect, or an infection somewhere else, but close enough to the mouth that bacterias will accumulate there. Even things like SIBO and H.pylori infections can cause the tongue to smell.

So first you are all 'it's all oraaaaaaaaaal, 96%!!!!' and now you are listing every disease under the sun to be possible cause for bb?
Again with the genetic stuff, have you even read and/or understood what I wrote in the previous post?
You still haven't answered my question tho, all the guys at the clinic of the study got cured, none of the people who went to clinics in here got cured, that's quite peculiar isn't it? Even factoring all non-oral causes, by sample those only account for 4%, what about the rest of the users in here? Hell, I'll throw you a bone, user KL123 has a genetic defect (not true but let's go with it), we pretty much exhausted all our genetics quota of the forum. Please explain how this forum in consistent with the study findings from a statistical standpoint.


You know for a guy who reads a lot a of papers you still seem in the dark for your case if I'm not mistaken?

[Dead]

Just because the smell is coming from the mouth doesn't mean it's easy to cure

ahhhh I see it, so everyone in the study were the lucky ones, cause it doesn't say there were people who weren't cured eventually, but all the people in here are the unlucky ones, makes peeeeerfect sense.
Uncurable people in the study: 0
Uncurable peope in our forum: 1,000,000,000,000,000

It doesn't say anything about them getting cured. All they did was find where the smell was coming from. In no way shape or form does it imply they were cured.

It's possible some of us are just the unfortunate few who were either born with or at some point acquired an oral microbiome which happens to produce a lot of VSC gases. Also even though the gases comes from within the mouth that doesn't mean the root cause must be oral.
There could be some genetic defect, or an infection somewhere else, but close enough to the mouth that bacterias will accumulate there. Even things like SIBO and H.pylori infections can cause the tongue to smell.

'but close enough to the mouth that bacterias will accumulate'
QUOTE ME ONE PAPER, ONE, JUST ONE, ON THIS STATEMENT. ONE, I IMPLORE YOU.

If you have an infection in the sinus for example, then bacteria will drain into the mouth, increasing the bacterial load. Samw thing if you have stomach bacteria and suffer from reflux/gerd, they will find their way to the mouth. It is well known that h.pylori infections can cause bad breath. And there are people on this very forum who had bad smelling tongues because of it, as proven by the lick test. After getting rid of h.pylori, the tongue odor went away.

There could be some genetic defect, or an infection somewhere else, but close enough to the mouth that bacterias will accumulate there. Even things like SIBO and H.pylori infections can cause the tongue to smell.

So first you are all 'it's all oraaaaaaaaaal, 96%!!!!' and now you are listing every disease under the sun to be possible cause for bb?

I'm saying the smell comes from oral bacteria in most cases, that's all. I'm not saying the root cause is oral, as there are many things which can cause this bacterial overgrowth. These breath clinics very rarely cure anyone. Most likely they just concluded the smell comes from the tongue for example, cleaned their tongues and gave them some tongue gel and scraper. You can't just cure a tongue coating, or get rid of your oral microbiome. They always grow back.

[mauricio]

Man, I officially give up, good luck with your papers!

[poco333]

How is using copper sulfate on the tongue and mouth to kill the odorous bacteria any different than using any other good mouth wash or bleach?

In either case, the bacteria starts to grow back and breath starts to stink if you don't stay on top of it.

So again copper sulfate seems like just another way of masking the problem but not really curing it or attacking the root cause.

The excessive production of this odorous bacteria and gasses is the cause... sh!t pilling up on the tongue is only the end effect.

Instead of copper sulfate, scrape the tongue, brush teeth and put a drop or two of Hibiclens on the dorsum and see if it's equally good instead of taking the risk with copper sulfate.

I'm not a microbiologist and I don't have a way to explain, scientifically, why copper works. I just know that it does and I was so grateful to have stumbled upon it that I felt obligated to say something. Even if I only help one person, its worth it. None of the other stuff--bleach, chlorhexidine, etc, etc ever worked for me, with 20 years of experience. They would provide temporary relief, but in less than an hour that bad taste would creep back into my mouth. Copper is so effective against those bb bugs (in my case anyways) that I noticed immediately that it worked. It takes time to get rid of those bacteria, so yes they do grow back in a couple days, but in an ever weakened state. They are losing ground all the time.
I had mentioned in an earlier post using chelated copper but I should state that chelated is bound to protein so that it will stay intact until it gets further into the digestive system before it is broken down, so it is not nearly as effective as Cu sulfate which dissolves immediately on the tongue. I still think the neat thing about copper is that it is an essential nutrient that the body needs everyday. It could be that people like me just have a copper deficiency issue.
I will continue to stand my ground that the tongue is the root cause. It is for people like me anyways. I still wish there was a way for people to post pictures of their tongue on here, especially the back!

[poco333]

Scrubbing/brushing my tongue (tung brush) with four different bacterial agents (cetylperidium, peroxide, chlorhexidine, sodium chlorite) actually worked for me. It took ALL four!!! Plus stopping all sugars and carbs (including fruit and beans) to not feed any remaining “bad” bacteria. My tongue is finally pink and I have zero morning breath! I’ve had bad breath over 40 yrs. and tried basically everything!!! Those with white tongues, please try this method. It worked for me! But remember you have to brush ALL of your tongue, way in the back until it meets your throat with each mouthwash! And NO sugar! Watch for hidden sugar in everything including salad dressing, ketchup, sauces etc. If you’re too skinny, eat lots of nuts!

HopefulOne I love your optimism!!! That is great that that works for you. Probably feel healthier too with no sugar.

In my case with copper I have no diet restrictions. I actually have gotten in the habit of drinking soda all day long with no bb. Instead I have sweet breath that smells like whatever pop I am drinking. I guess it is my guilty pleasure from having had to avoid sugars for so many years because it would feed the bb bugs. The only thing I avoid these days is large amounts of coffee--stimulates my guts too much.