I am new to this forum, although I am not new to bad breath. I, like many others, was teased at school, failed to make new friends or keep the old ones, embarrassed at work, and lost the love of my life. Instead of boring you with all-too-familiar heartbreaking stories, I want to share my views on bad breath with you. I'm a physician/scientist-in-training (by no means I am implying that I have authority on this subject), so I would like to share some thoughts here:
1) What I know about halitosis
I believe that there are many causes to this problem, although I will say that bacteria in our oral cavities will probably be the cause for the majority of the cases (especially if you don't have other health problems). According to some researchers at the Forsyth Institute at the Harvard University, we have probably more than 700 bacterial species in our mouths. Many of them are not cultivable outside the mouth, so the researchers are using different molecular biology tools to characterize them now. Some bacterial species are present in the mouths of the people with halitosis but not in the mouths of the people with fresh breath. It doesn't mean those bacteria definitely are the culprits of bad breath, but it's a possibility. There are several issues that needed to be investigate: 1) Why do "bad" bacteria manage to colonize / wipe out (or decrease the level of) "good bacteria"? 2) Does genetic disposition make a person more susceptible to developing bad breath? 3) What are the metabolism/ cell cycles/ biochemical characteristics of the bad bacteria? 4) How do these bacteria interact with each other (intraspecies and interspecies-wise)? 5) How can we remove the bad bacteria but keep the good ones? We don't have answers to these questions yet.
2) About claims that can eliminate bad breath
I personally do not believe that there's a permanent cure for bad breath at this point. Most of the mouthwashes kill bacteria (both good and bad), so they may reduce the odor but won't eliminate it. That's because the normal floral composition is not restored that way. About all those "halitosis kits" - you may try them if you want to, but beware of side effects. First of all, most, if not all, of them are not tested rigourously. Research has to be done in an unbiased manner (preferably no financial implication, but most of the "dentist-sellers" actually gain profit by selling you those kits). Research has to be published in a well-respected peer-reviewed journal and the results must be reproducible by other researchers who follow the method. So far, most of the "bad-breath" products on the market are not tested this way, and most of the success stories are anecdotal. Don't be misled by the word "clinically proven" - these kits are not approved by ADA or FDA. They can say whatever they want. Moreover, US dental schools offer very few microbiology classes and none of them is specifically about bad breath. Dentists in private practice seldom have enough knowledge to address bad breath adequately.
Dr. Mel Rosenberg's product, seems to be theoretically most scientifically sound. I know a lot of people say his stuff doesn't work. I am not a microbiologist, so I cannot really comment on the hydrophilic/hydrophobic principles of the mouthwash. However, if it does lift the bacteria off the tongue as it claims, then it should reduce the overall load of bacteria (just like many other mouthwashes, although they use different mechanisms to reduce the load) and thus reduce the odor. I do not think it's a perfect solution because it doesn't specifically target bacteria that cause bad breath. I am not a fan of alternative medicine largely because most success stories are anecdotal and no mechanism of how it works has been established.
3) What should we do now?
Okay, so we don't have a cure for this at this point, but we do have a general idea of what causes it. Unfortunately, the academic scientific community does not pay much attention to this problem at all. Only a handful of academic researchers are working on it. In general, people in academia are more interested in solving challenging problems than making money (I say in general, not always). If you're in college or younger, I encourage you to go into sciences. I know it's hard, but it's also interesting. Plus, you have an issue that you feel passionate about, so do something about it if you think others are not doing well enough. I am not a microbiologist (yet), but I will jump at the opportunity if I can do some research in this area. For people who cannot actually go into science to study this by yourself, try to organize yourselves on this forum and send letters (rational and calm, not emotional) to people who may sympathize with your cause and/or have the ability to bring attention to this matter. Sometimes it's like a snowball, you start small but once you generate a large crowd, people will notice. Look up pubmed, look up dental school departments and microbiology departments in universities and see if someone is working on biofilms/ halitosis. Don't try to send indivdual emails. That can be annoying. Organize everything here and send ONE letter. If more people work together here, you will generate more power to push things forward.
4) Kudos to this site!
Being a sufferer myself, I have to thank jimi for organizing this site so that people with similar problems can come together. Just one thing though: I know how emotional we can be because of this humiliating problem, but we should try to keep our heads cool and try not to use swear words and attack each other. I think the main goals here are to support each other through this difficult time and to get the message across to researchers (real researchers, not pseudo-science reseachers) that we do have a problem here that is challenging and affects a lot of poeple negatively. We need to let them know it's a problem that should be investigated, for both intellectual curiosity and and practical reasons. Thanks again for this site!
Something of interest:
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2003 ... reath.html
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My views on bad breath
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emotional rescue
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Welcome!
Great post, it´s good to know that there´s a suffer that is studying this things....
Have you heard about nanotechnology??? You know, i was talking with a friend yesterday and he told me a few things about nanotechnology and how this could be the future cure for many several diseases....
From what i have investigated till now, this could be a cure for halithosis if science apply this knowns to our problem....
what do you think??
Maybe if we make us known by the nanotechnology researchers they could make some research based on the facts that Dr. Paster and his team had gotten so far.....
I encourage all the members of the site to study more about the nanotechnology to see it´s factibility or possible foundations where we could maybe send some letters or something....
Here´s a site
www.nanotechnology.com
Great post, it´s good to know that there´s a suffer that is studying this things....
Have you heard about nanotechnology??? You know, i was talking with a friend yesterday and he told me a few things about nanotechnology and how this could be the future cure for many several diseases....
From what i have investigated till now, this could be a cure for halithosis if science apply this knowns to our problem....
what do you think??
Maybe if we make us known by the nanotechnology researchers they could make some research based on the facts that Dr. Paster and his team had gotten so far.....
I encourage all the members of the site to study more about the nanotechnology to see it´s factibility or possible foundations where we could maybe send some letters or something....
Here´s a site
www.nanotechnology.com
I am not studying bad breath right now and probably won't have the opportunity to do so for some time, but I think it's important to let people develop a good understanding on this issue and hopefully garner attention and interests from academic researchers who are willing to investigate this problem not for the money.
I have a general idea what nanotechnology is, but it's a very new field and it's not really biology-related at this point. It will be quite a long time before nanotechnology be applied to halitosis. However, by no means I am discouraging you to collect information and find researchers who are interested in studying halitosis using such technology. It will be great news for everyone.
About taking this issue to a higher level (disseminating correct information to the public and generating interests from academic researchers), there are several things we can do, although they may be VERY difficult to implement due to the lack of time, human power, and finanical resources.
1) This site is a great site (kudos to jimi), but it is not a professional site. A good example of a professional site will be American Cancer Society www.cancer.org Don't take that as a personal attack, but to generate positive and serious public attention a professional site is essential. I understand that the site may not have enough money to be significantly upgraded, but this is something to think about. By the way, to organize at a high level, a foundation should be formed (I am not sure about the legal details). Local chapters to organize people will probably be a good idea as well. The ability to disseminate accurate and scientifically-proven evidence will also increase the credibility of the site. No swear words; use professional tones. Having a professional site that pops up on top of search engines will be a good way to go.
2) Since we lack money to do significant upgrade ourselves, another way will be to contact non-profit research foundations. They will definitely not grant money to this site because no one here is really engaging in any research, but at least you can garner attention from researchers.
3) Communicating with academic researchers as a group will also be a good idea to let people know that there are MANY people who suffer from this. Again, individual e-mails are likely to be ignored. The problem is that funding from the NIH or other foundations may be more difficult to get nowadays in the United States because of the ongoing war, which leads to a decrease in research funding in many institutions and reseachers may not have the resources to undertake such an endeavor.
Some links may be of interests (again, please don't send tons of e-mails to these researchers):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_de ... ted_States
Check out the dental schools and see if you can identify any research project that's related to oral biology/ biofilms/ halitosis
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research
This is the National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research.
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Extra ... efault.htm
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Intra ... efault.htm
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Intra ... nCisar.htm
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Intra ... rander.htm
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Intra ... ompson.htm
good luck to everyone.
Since jimi is the leader of this site, I think it's good to see what he/she thinks about it.
I have a general idea what nanotechnology is, but it's a very new field and it's not really biology-related at this point. It will be quite a long time before nanotechnology be applied to halitosis. However, by no means I am discouraging you to collect information and find researchers who are interested in studying halitosis using such technology. It will be great news for everyone.
About taking this issue to a higher level (disseminating correct information to the public and generating interests from academic researchers), there are several things we can do, although they may be VERY difficult to implement due to the lack of time, human power, and finanical resources.
1) This site is a great site (kudos to jimi), but it is not a professional site. A good example of a professional site will be American Cancer Society www.cancer.org Don't take that as a personal attack, but to generate positive and serious public attention a professional site is essential. I understand that the site may not have enough money to be significantly upgraded, but this is something to think about. By the way, to organize at a high level, a foundation should be formed (I am not sure about the legal details). Local chapters to organize people will probably be a good idea as well. The ability to disseminate accurate and scientifically-proven evidence will also increase the credibility of the site. No swear words; use professional tones. Having a professional site that pops up on top of search engines will be a good way to go.
2) Since we lack money to do significant upgrade ourselves, another way will be to contact non-profit research foundations. They will definitely not grant money to this site because no one here is really engaging in any research, but at least you can garner attention from researchers.
3) Communicating with academic researchers as a group will also be a good idea to let people know that there are MANY people who suffer from this. Again, individual e-mails are likely to be ignored. The problem is that funding from the NIH or other foundations may be more difficult to get nowadays in the United States because of the ongoing war, which leads to a decrease in research funding in many institutions and reseachers may not have the resources to undertake such an endeavor.
Some links may be of interests (again, please don't send tons of e-mails to these researchers):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_de ... ted_States
Check out the dental schools and see if you can identify any research project that's related to oral biology/ biofilms/ halitosis
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research
This is the National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research.
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Extra ... efault.htm
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Intra ... efault.htm
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Intra ... nCisar.htm
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Intra ... rander.htm
http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Research/Intra ... ompson.htm
good luck to everyone.
Since jimi is the leader of this site, I think it's good to see what he/she thinks about it.
I have a general idea of what nanotechology is, but it's a very new field and it's not very biology-related at this point, so I think it will be a long time to make connections between nanotechnology and bad breath. However, if you do know someone who's interested in studying halitosis through nanotechnology applications, do go for it. It will be good news to everyone here.
By the way, just want to share a few more thoughts about bad breath:
I haven't used many of those halitosis kits myself, so it's hard for me to tell whether they are effective or not. However, keep in mind that the kit being effective on one person doesn't mean it will be effective on everyone. As research has shown that many different species can lead to bad breath (not to mention that we haven't identified every single species in our oral environment), all of us may have an overgrowth of one or multiple "bad-breath" bacterial species and all of us may have very different floral composition (despite all having the same outcome - bad breath). Therefore, it makes it difficult to generalize what will work and what won't work. Perhaps one kit works on one person because that kit seems to be particularly effective in removing one certain species of bacteria. At this point, we really don't have much information. But again, I suspect that those kits are particularly effective against one or another particular strain of bacteria. They are usually general agents.
The Harvard researchers are genotyping the bacterial species in our oral cavity - that's good because it will generate specific information about the bacteria. After you identify the bacteria, you can start understanding the biochemical properties and characteristics of them. That's how you come up with a strategy step by step. In that article, I think they also wanted to genotype the hosts - us - which is interesting as well because we, the ones who are prone to suffer from halitosis, may have a different genotype than the others who don't have halitosis. I haven't seen any article published from their lab regarding this probably because of lack of funding.
In terms of solution, I can think of something that is theoretically feasible but it has to be worked in details by scientists in vitro and in vivo (if applicable) and finally in human trials. It can take a long, long time. But let's see:
If we can genetically engineer a bacterial species that has a growth advantage over the malignant ones but won't lead to any production of bad breath (say, metabolize food particles in a way that the end products will remain odorless), then we can colonize that strain on our tongue surfaces to wipe out the bad ones. It sounds theoretically possible but at the same time may be very difficult to carry out. First, it's easy to generate mutated bacteria but they seldom have a growth advantage over the "natural ones". Many factors have to be in place - say, they will have a higher affiliation to the tongue/mucosal surface than the bad ones; they will live and proliferate faster than the bad ones; they need to have an advantage in competing with the bad bacteria for food sources. Many genes will be mutated to get the new genotype and I am not sure if this is possible at this point. If this can work out in vitro (and assuming that we have a good in vitro model, which at this point we don't), then we need to try it out in vivo. But what animal model will be good for trials? I suspect it's very difficult to detect bad breath from mice practically. If we do overcome these two issues (considering that I am not a real microbiologist/ geneticist and I can come up with this idea in just a few minutes, I am sure many good academic researchers will be able to come up with more feasible solutions than I can if they take it seriously), then we need to move onto human trials, which takes forever for approval from IRB/ FDA, etc. As you know, we have 3 or 4 phases of human trials, to test the safety, efficacy, etc. Of course, I am treating this as a real drug... this is how strict real research is like (and that's why I doubt the safety/ efficacy of those halitosis kits... to me, this is home-made solution and not real research results at all...)
I would say the scenario I described (about genetically mutated bacteria) may be a little simplistic, unfortunately. Bacteria form biofilms and they connect to each other in various ways (people should see how they connect to each other in 3-D; it's like building complexes connecting to each other through bridges and tunnels). Therefore, we need to understand how they connect to each other and how to dismantle those bridges as well.
Sadly, I would say that to solve the fundamental problems will involve many different disciplines - genetics, microbiology, immunology, molecular biology, cellular biology, structural biology, etc. It will take multi-discipline teams to take care of the whole problem. At this point, I don't see it's happening, but I am sure it will in the future if people manage to get scientists to treat this as a serious problem that deserves their time.
By the way, just want to share a few more thoughts about bad breath:
I haven't used many of those halitosis kits myself, so it's hard for me to tell whether they are effective or not. However, keep in mind that the kit being effective on one person doesn't mean it will be effective on everyone. As research has shown that many different species can lead to bad breath (not to mention that we haven't identified every single species in our oral environment), all of us may have an overgrowth of one or multiple "bad-breath" bacterial species and all of us may have very different floral composition (despite all having the same outcome - bad breath). Therefore, it makes it difficult to generalize what will work and what won't work. Perhaps one kit works on one person because that kit seems to be particularly effective in removing one certain species of bacteria. At this point, we really don't have much information. But again, I suspect that those kits are particularly effective against one or another particular strain of bacteria. They are usually general agents.
The Harvard researchers are genotyping the bacterial species in our oral cavity - that's good because it will generate specific information about the bacteria. After you identify the bacteria, you can start understanding the biochemical properties and characteristics of them. That's how you come up with a strategy step by step. In that article, I think they also wanted to genotype the hosts - us - which is interesting as well because we, the ones who are prone to suffer from halitosis, may have a different genotype than the others who don't have halitosis. I haven't seen any article published from their lab regarding this probably because of lack of funding.
In terms of solution, I can think of something that is theoretically feasible but it has to be worked in details by scientists in vitro and in vivo (if applicable) and finally in human trials. It can take a long, long time. But let's see:
If we can genetically engineer a bacterial species that has a growth advantage over the malignant ones but won't lead to any production of bad breath (say, metabolize food particles in a way that the end products will remain odorless), then we can colonize that strain on our tongue surfaces to wipe out the bad ones. It sounds theoretically possible but at the same time may be very difficult to carry out. First, it's easy to generate mutated bacteria but they seldom have a growth advantage over the "natural ones". Many factors have to be in place - say, they will have a higher affiliation to the tongue/mucosal surface than the bad ones; they will live and proliferate faster than the bad ones; they need to have an advantage in competing with the bad bacteria for food sources. Many genes will be mutated to get the new genotype and I am not sure if this is possible at this point. If this can work out in vitro (and assuming that we have a good in vitro model, which at this point we don't), then we need to try it out in vivo. But what animal model will be good for trials? I suspect it's very difficult to detect bad breath from mice practically. If we do overcome these two issues (considering that I am not a real microbiologist/ geneticist and I can come up with this idea in just a few minutes, I am sure many good academic researchers will be able to come up with more feasible solutions than I can if they take it seriously), then we need to move onto human trials, which takes forever for approval from IRB/ FDA, etc. As you know, we have 3 or 4 phases of human trials, to test the safety, efficacy, etc. Of course, I am treating this as a real drug... this is how strict real research is like (and that's why I doubt the safety/ efficacy of those halitosis kits... to me, this is home-made solution and not real research results at all...)
I would say the scenario I described (about genetically mutated bacteria) may be a little simplistic, unfortunately. Bacteria form biofilms and they connect to each other in various ways (people should see how they connect to each other in 3-D; it's like building complexes connecting to each other through bridges and tunnels). Therefore, we need to understand how they connect to each other and how to dismantle those bridges as well.
Sadly, I would say that to solve the fundamental problems will involve many different disciplines - genetics, microbiology, immunology, molecular biology, cellular biology, structural biology, etc. It will take multi-discipline teams to take care of the whole problem. At this point, I don't see it's happening, but I am sure it will in the future if people manage to get scientists to treat this as a serious problem that deserves their time.
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emotional rescue
- Sheriff
- Posts: 453
- Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:34 am
I heard that they were anaerobic, but I would hate to use the word "proven". There are many species that people haven't been able to identify yet. I think it's likely that some or most of the bacteria are anaerobic bceause (1) many anaerobic bacteria produce sulfur during their metabolism. (2) Many of the bacterial species cannot be cultured in a traditional incubator; that's probably because they cannot tolerate oxygen. However, there are many species that are facultative anaerobics as well. It's hard to say it's proven that the bad bateria are anaerobic, but I suppose it's likely that they are.
