Who is the world expert of BB?

[Phantasist]

Streptococus Salivarius may very well be the predominant bacterium in a baby's mouth, but it seems to me that if there is a predisposition for the wrong kind of microfloral ecology, the anaerobic bacteria will eventually overwhelm the beneficial bacteria and bad breath will be the result. As long as the predisposition exists, there cannot be a permanent restoration of the original beneficial ecology.

[halitosisux]

I strongly suspect a missing antibacterial component in the saliva, but Halitosisux will probably disagree with that.

I would disagree purely because Aydinmur has already explained that the "antibacterial" systems we have in the mouth are not really doing much at all to control what goes.

The biggest factor is the flushing effect of oxygen-rich saliva that constantly bathes the mouth and keeps most areas aerobic apart from the areas that have evolved not to be, such as the tongue surface.

Microorganisms are left to "fight it out" between themselves like they would do in any habitat. But, supply too much nitrient or too much of the wrong nutrients (such as blood for example) to these microorganisms and they'll go wild. Make it too dry or too acidic or alkaline or decrease the the amount of oxygen, and these are all predispositions that can make the difference between someone who has BB and someone who doesnt.

[Phantasist]

Well, it looks like we have another disagreement. I have never read that Aydin Murat said that the antibacterial systems that we have in the mouth are not really doing much. I would think that the antibacterial substances in saliva are important, because otherwise nature would not put them there.
I also think that "supplying too much of the wrong nutrients" is a red herring. Which one of us exactly is supplying all these "wrong" nutrients? Do you think that those of us who have bad breath go to the supermarket every week so that we can buy the wrong nutrients and put them in our mouths? And as far as blood goes, we are not vampires. We don't have any more blood in our mouths than anyone else has.
No, I'm afraid you have to come up with a better explanation than "the microbes are fighting it out with one another". Of course they are. But that would be true in everyone's mouth on the planet Earth. So why are the bad microbes winning the battle in some of us? I still haven't heard a good explanation for that. In fact, an immune deficiency in some people's saliva still sounds like a good possible explanation to me.

[halitosisux]

I recall Aydinmur saying that IgA, for example, does not play a significant role in controlling the bacterial activity inside the mouth with regards to having or not having bad breath.

That doesnt mean to say that IgA isnt important in protecting the tissues and keeping bacteria out of the body.

People who are immunosuppressed or immunocompromised dont suddenly have bad breath, unless they develop diseases associated with this lowered immunity.

Nobody has said that the antibacterial substances in saliva aren't important. They are as important as any other part of the immune system in protecting us internally. But who knows whether they actually play any role in controlling the bacterial activity "outside" the body, such as inside the mouth, to prevent something as insignificant to our survival as bad breath? I can completely understand how there would be systems that have evolved to prevent and deal with bacteria and viruses from entering the tissues and entering the body, otherwise we'd all never have managed to evolve past being the size of bacteria ourselves, but why would it be important to nature and for our evolution to be concerned about bad breath? There are plenty of ways that nature has evolved ways of keeping odours down, on the back of existing systems, such as our saliva that already serves so many important functions.

Phantasist, there is no need for your sarcasm. I was obviously describing abnormal conditions that can commonly exist in the presense of various health problems and diseases when I referred to blood in the mouth and excessive nutrients etc in the form of white blood cells etc.

And how do you even know you have bad microbes in your mouth? What is a bad microbe? one that produces odour? most microbes produce odour.

[aydinmur]

With your permission, I would like to correct bad/good bacteria terms.They are poor cells. The target of all is few kcal energy. We can call bad bacteria as "odorigenic" (makes halitosis). There is not good boundary between bad/good (odorigenic or nonodorigenic) bacteria as halitosisux said.
All are capable of make bad odor at any time. To produce bad odor is transmissable and learnable skill between bacterial cells.

Antibacterial rinses, medicines, all substances including antibiotics are have transient effect on oral nicrobiota. Specific nutrients, foods, diets are also have transient effect on bacteria. Flora profile is immediately restored by oral ecologic system after antimicrobial usage stopped. For this reason, To kill every bacteria with antimicrobials to prevent halitosis is not a bright idea.

Phantasist and halitosisux, Accept my apologies if my bad English caused any misunderstanding. IgA is a group of antibody. It blocks antigenic part of foreign bodies (such as bacteria, virus). It works only inside mouth. It is antigen specific produced by immun system, found in body secretions (saliva, tear, sweat) but not in blood. It controls flora profile, inhibits microorganisms, develops a natural defence. I dont know further details how it specifically affects on halitosis.
- Murat

[halitosisux]

Thanks for your information Aydinmur.
Do any of your chronic halitosis patients have IgA deficiency or any other form of immune disorders/deficiencies?
Is there any clear evidence to support any direct correlation between such deficiencies and chronic halitosis?
Thanks again.

[fresh]

I read about and study bacteria. Although Earth was created around 4.5 billion years ago, life began to exist not long after. Due to the huge timescales involved, there is inconclusive evidence for exact dates, but nonetheless, the eagerness of life to exist was apparent from the beginning. As you all know all life is formed from cells, and all life traces back to a single primordial twitch from which all life evolved from, so you see how we are billions of years old. The pertinent fact is all life is one, we all have bacteria in our cells, we could not live without them, yet they speak a different language, it’s like they’re not sure about the relationship, they still have their bags packed, ready to go. Having discussions like this thread makes us drill down inside our preoccupation with bb. It may end in a result, possibly in bb sufferer’s favour! But probably not. We didn’t cross the border into bb the border crossed us. You see bb is only a problem in our modern condensed social existence. If we keep chatting on this tread we may very well discover that permanent life long bb is completely normal, you may find those who do not suffer bb are the odd ones out. It could very well be the act of brushing our teeth etc is completely unnatural and often results in odourless breath. This is completely bizarre behaviour from a historical biological view point. About here we want to know what all this means. Could it be a life with bb is exactly what our biological make up intended from the beginning? We will evolve to bb free existence, probably due to fresh breath people having more babies then bb people. How long will this take? Just look at the sex drive of modern day humans, it’s like we are still fighting extinction. I hope this helps us appreciate this thing known as the miracle of life. Go live it!

[Phantasist]

Halitosissux,

As for my sarcasm, I plead guilty as charged. I consider it humor, and we can certainly use more of that in this depressing somber forum.

When I used the term "bad bacteria", I was referring to the anaerobic bacteria that produce the volatile sulpher compounds.

It does appear that Aydin Murat considers the Immunoglobulin A important in developing a defense against microorganisms such as bacteria in the mouth. So it would make sense to consider a possible deficiency of salivary IgA in bad breath sufferers.

Aydin Murat is also telling us that antibacterial substances can only have a temporary effect because of the predisposition of someone's microfloral oral ecology which will always reestablish itself. The question is what is causing the wrong predisposition, and we don't have a good answer for that.

[Phantasist]

Fresh,

I will agree that life on earth began several billion years ago, although I hardly consider an amoeba the same as a human being, but I won't argue about that.

However, I will comment on your phrase "you may find those who do not suffer bb are the odd ones out". Really? I would think that we BB sufferers are the odd ones out. Bad breath is certainly not conducive to romance. It would logically appear that BB sufferers have less of a chance to attract a marriage partner, which means they have less of a chance to produce offspring, which means that over time BB sufferers should become extinct. That is how evolution works - the detrimental genes are eventually eliminated from the gene pool. In fact it puzzles me why all of us on Earth have not already evolved to have a perfect bad breath free oral ecology. After all, we have been around for millions of years (billions according to your reckoning). And yet this is not so. There are still plenty of people around with bad breath! I guess Darwin's theory on natural selection doesn't work as good as he thought. Case in point: My mother always had an odor on her breath, yet she was still able to get married and have an offspring. Result: BB gene - 1, Phantasist - 0.

[halitosisux]

Lets not forget this too:-
http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/content/full/62/1/71

Phantasist, there are many known predispositions which can lead to anaerobic bacterial over-activity on the tongue surface. Having longer than normal tongue papillae for example. I mean the actual blood filled living tissue of the papillae, not the dead skin at the ends that turn into a coating.

Millions of years of evolution created this optimal anaerobic bacterial breeding ground on our tongue surface. Nature would never have arrived at this (or anything for that matter) without purposely making tiny alterations or mutations since the very beginnings. The only feedback that nature has on this process is whether these small changes go on to allow us to thrive, or whether they dont. Most people dont generally have BB - but many do. And as you've pointed out, having BB doesnt stop us in our evolutionary tracks.

There is actual development in laser technology that allows papillae to be reduced in length.

And, maybe the reason babies dont have BB is because their papillae are so small. Aydinmur has mentioned that the first bacteria to colonize a baby's mouth are streptococcus salivarius and that within the first year ~98% of all the bacteria in a baby are streptococci of some form. Things start to change as the teeth begin to emerge, which is a very clear example of how minor ecological changes do actually go on to change the bacterial profile.

[Susie]

Would someone please care to tell me how they get bacteria from mother in the first 48 hours of life????? I wasn't even with my mother the first 48 hours of life? Do you mean the first 48 hours of being pregnant??? This is confusing to me. Also my daughter doesn't have bb. So far my son is 2 and doesn't have it either.

[Susie]

I you may find those who do not suffer bb are the odd ones out.

Gosh, hate to seem rude and burst your bubble, but we are the ODD ones. That's just the cold hard truth! Dang, why can't I be delusional? lol

[fresh]

If you want to give your bb a real beating you will need to do what your body wants and your brain can't stand, so this won't help much. But do the following to beat bb if you can control your mind.

Exercise till your body is near or at peak physical condition.

Take up yoga like your life depends on it.

Swim 3 miles a day, preferably in salt water but an indoor heated pool will do.
Practice building your self esteem and confidence.
Eat a balanced diet.

Drink sugar free fluids only and plenty of it.

Get rid of all your mouth cleaning aids and buy every 3 months 2 soft bristle tooth brushes, 1 proper tongue scraper and non waxed dental floss.
Use 1 tooth brush for your teeth, cheeks and gums and 1 brush for you tongue and make sure the 2 brushes don't swap or touch each other.

If you do all this and I think you'll find it to hard and so on, but for those who do, (if anyone) your bb will hate it to the last one loses its grip and succumbs to being fewer and weaker than all the other bacteria types in your body.

Now quick think up lots of excuses on why you don't need to do this and type them below to help those who couldn't think up a plausible excuses.

As this is my last post I’ll give you a diddy on bb bacteria-(Life from Bacteria’s view is all mind over matter-Bacteria doesn’t mind and you don’t Matter) see you on the other side if you make it.

[Phantasist]

Halitosisux,
You and I have been dancing around this issue for some time. Can you clarify at least one thing? Is it your position that a lack of one or more antibacterial substances (i.e. salivary IgA) can never be the cause of an overgrowth of anaerobic bacteria in the mouth, and therefore can never be the cause of bad breath? And is it further your position that such an immune deficiency, as it were, can never be genetic and therefore cannot be inherited?

[aydinmur]

Would someone please care to tell me how they get bacteria from mother in the first 48 hours of life????? I wasn't even with my mother the first 48 hours of life? Do you mean the first 48 hours of being pregnant??? This is confusing to me. Also my daughter doesn't have bb. So far my son is 2 and doesn't have it either.

Susie,
Yes its correct. Even no need 48 hours. Babies take streptococci from their mothers within first 5-10 hours after birth.
Mother's birth canal, vagina, lips, breast, finger or any other environmental objects carry many bacteria into mouth of newborn. Mostly streptococci (S. salivarius, S. Oralis, S. Mitis..) can colonize to newborns' mouth. Very less others, Streptococcus agalactia may be present for first 4 months. Less than %1 Staphylococci, less than %1 Neisseria species, perhaps some Candida or skin fungi. Veillonella (on the tongue) , vaginal Actinomyces and Lactobacilli may be found within hours or days after birth.
- Murat