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Metronidazole & Fluconazole (Combination therapy for BB)

Everything related with bad breath can be found here. Everything about products, research, news about bad breath......
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KeepTrying09
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Post by KeepTrying09 »

badtimes wrote:how can one test for candida? i hear that spit test is false
You are correct, the spit test is not a good indicator as to whether you have Candida or not.

You can be tested for Candida. There are both blood tests and stool tests which could provide you with a more reliable result than any spit test could. Also, your if you believe you are suffering from a Candida infection in your mouth or sinuses, your doctor could simply take a culture from that area and have it tested for Candida. Finally, if your doctor was really willing to help you, he or she could do either an upper or a lower endoscopy. The upper endoscopy would show if you had a Candida infection in your esophagus, and a lower endoscopy would show if you had an overgrowth of Candida in your large intestines.

Regardless, in order to get reliable results, you will have to find a doctor who is willing to examine you for Candida.


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KeepTrying09
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Post by KeepTrying09 »

Hey Guys,

Some people have asked me which probiotics they should be using if they are gonna try this method with Metronidazole and Fluconazole to possibly cure bad breath.

As long as you are taking a probiotic supplement with more than 100 Billion CFUs (colony forming units) per day during your treatment, I don't really think it matters on the brand that you take.

However, if you want my personal opinion, I would recommend two brands, one of which I have personal experience with taking.

If you live in North America, you could order a brand called Nature's Way Primadophilus Intensive. I ordered mine from
http://www.vitacost.com/Natures-Way-Pri ... -Intensive and had them brought to me from America.

If you live in Europe, I've heard of a really good probiotic called VSL#3. It has 450 billion CFUs per capsule, which is really good! Honestly if I lived in Europe, i'd be taking this one, but i'm happy with the one I got from America. Anyway, I'm not sure which website you could order VSL#3 from, but just do a google search and i'm sure you could find it.
chiki89
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Post by chiki89 »

It's hard, but it'll be worth it . I am taking Fluconazole for a couple of days now, and I am noticing some good results. Keep in mind that Candida can become resistant to Fluconazole, or whatever other drug you treat it with, that's why it's better to stay on the no bread, pasta, white rice..nor sweets or alcohol, etc during your treatment so that it won't come back. I keep reading posts on how many people have gotten cured but then it came back, in a way I'm worried cuz i hope that is not my case..but I guess taking probiotics during and after treatment and staying off sweets after the treatment is done might prevent it from coming back -_- ahhhh i hope soo :roll:
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KeepTrying09
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Post by KeepTrying09 »

A forum member messaged me today with a link to a very interesting article in regards to bad breath, H. Pylori, and treatment with some antibiotic medications (one of which was Metronidazole). It just reinforces my theory that bad breath caused by a bacterial/fungal imbalance in the body is more common than doctors would have you believe. I encourage you to read the following article. The woman in the article suffered from bad breath for more than 60 years and finally overcame it!
http://www.helico.com/case_study-01-halitosis_and_hpylori.html wrote:HALITOSIS AND HELICOBACTER PYLORI : A CASE STUDY

Authors: Martin Atkinson-Barr, Ph.D., Barry J. Marshall, M.D.
Keywords: halitosis, Helicobacter pylori, breath, anaerobic bacteria, achlorhydria, gastritis, antibiotic therapy, tetracycline, metronidazole, bismuth, triple therapy.
Journal: Helicobacter Web. 1996; vol2:p1

Abstract

We report a case study of a patient with chronic halitosis of > 60yrs duration that was resistant to all traditional therapies but was resolved following triple-therapy for Helicobacter pylori.

Introduction

The causal relationship between Helicobacter pylori and upper gastrointestinal disease is now well established and published guidelines call for antimicrobials as first line therapy for ulcer patients (1). An early study by one of the authors reported on the symptomatic infection following ingestion of H. pylori (2) and one study has suggested that the disease may progress from an acute symptomatic phase to an asymptomatic infection with concomitant chronic gastritis (3). It was noted that the acute stage of infection was accompanied by fatigue, nausea, vomiting and bloating and that a family member reported that the subject had developed malodorous breath. Since then other authors have reported an apparent benefit when patients with halitosis have been treated for H. pylori(4,5).

Here we report on a case of chronic halitosis which was refractory to normal treatments. The patient was strongly seropositive for H. pylori and treatment was initiated with triple therapy which resolved the infection and the halitosis.

Case Report

A very active non-smoking 76-year-old Caucasian woman of normal physique and living in Southern California presented with a 60-year history of halitosis. In the last ten years she reports some problem with gastro-esophageal reflux and a case of aggressively treated laryngitis in 1970 lead to dysphonia. In recent years she has experienced some age-onset diabetes. There is no history of peptic ulcer disease or dyspepsia.

She has clear memories from age 16 of her mother instructing her to improve her dental hygiene to eliminate the odor. She reported that the foul breath makes her social relationships difficult, particularly with her grandchildren, and she remembers that her husband had told her that it was of little use to repeatedly cleanse her teeth when the problem appeared to be coming from lower in the digestive system.

Over a period of many years she had sought an effective treatment for the halitosis from a number of dentists and in spite of fastidious care and frequent dental visits the problem continued. She does, however, enjoy enviable dentition with no loss of teeth and little evidence of caries. She reports that the odor is more severe on waking, as is commonly experienced and referred to as morning mouth.

An examination of the family history is strongly suggestive of H. pylori infection in at least one parent and siblings. One brother has a 20-year history of stomach ulcers and now suffers from coronary artery disease.

Antibody titers with specific ELISA were strongly positive for H. pylori and therapy was initiated with tetracycline/metronidazole/bismuth. Although the patient experienced some nausea she completed the prescribed treatment and it was noted that the halitosis had abated. In the ensuing months serological tests demonstrated a reduction in antibody titer though at six months it was clear that eradication had not been achieved and a second treatment was completed. The patient continues to be free of halitosis.

Discussion

Bacterial anaerobic respiration produces foul smelling compounds which could cause halitosis under suitable conditions. There are two major problems with the hypothesis that H. pylori is the causative organism in this case of halitosis and that eradication of H. pylori led to the cessation of foul smelling breath:

H. pylori is very common infection affecting some 30% of the population. By contrast we know from normal experience that chronic halitosis is relatively uncommon. However since only 10% of the population ever develop peptic ulcer disease it is clear that the progression of the disease varies from subject to subject. Most other infections are self limiting and therefore such a long history indicates an unusual pathology which is supported by our knowledge of the nature of H. pylori within the gastric mucosa.

The combination of tetracycline and metronidazole is effective in the eradication of a wide spectrum of aerobes and anaerobes. Triple therapy will eradicate many possible candidate infections making it unclear whether the therapy was successful directly as a result of it's action on H. pylori or because another organism was eliminated. Over the 60 year period this patient had received a variety of antibiotic therapies for various medical problems without relief from halitosis.

Conclusion

The published guidelines call for routine antimicrobial treatment only in H. pylori infected subjects with ulcers and point out that, at the present time, there is no reason to consider the routine detection or treatment in the absence of ulcers. We await the conclusions of prospective studies on a related group, that is patients with non-ulcer dyspepsia. This case report identifies one patient who appears to have had halitosis as a result of the infection, without any symptoms that would indicate an ulcer and without a history of dyspepsia. More research is needed to establish the range and nature of the symptoms that exist in a non-ulcer H. pylori infected population. This large group has not previously been identified as a target for future research.

Editor's Comments

If H. pylori does cause halitosis then the mechanism might be that these people have intermittent achlorhydria and at times have residual food putrefying in the stomach. In a study in Brazil, we found that 25% of healthy males with HP were producing almost no acid. In this state food takes only a few hours to start to smell after being mixed with saliva and chewed to inoculate it with oral bacteria. If H. pylori and ammonia production (from urease) are present in the stomach of a person who only makes a small amount of acid, any residual acid is neutralized by the ammonia thus making the contents a perfect anaerobic culture medium. After eradication of HP, ammonia product stops and even a small amount of acid will be enough to keep the stomach sterile. Finally, even if the HP were not at fault, our two most effective HP antibiotics (clarithromycin and metronidazole) are secreted in saliva and are likely to eradicate any single pathogenic species, which could cause halitosis, and which might inhabit the mouth.

References

1. Helicobacter pylori in Peptic Ulcer Disease. NIH Consensus Statement 1994 Feb 7-9;12(1):

2. Marshall BJ, Armstrong JA, McGechie DB, Glancy RJ. Attempt to fulfil Koch's postulates for pyloric Campylobacter. Med J Aust 1985; 142:436-9

3. Dooley C, Cohen H, Fitzgibbons P, et al. Prevalence of Helicobacter pylori infection in histologic gastritis in asymptomatic persons. N Engl J Med 1989;321:1562-6

4. Norfleet, R.G. Helicobacter Halitosis (Letter). J.Clin.Gastroenterol. 16: 74, 1993.

5. Tiomny, E., Arber, N., Moshkowitz, M., Peled, Y., and Gilat, T. Halitosis and Helicobacter pylori. A possible link? J.Clin.Gastroenterol. 15:236-237, 1992.
deebas
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Post by deebas »

Thanks for the post KT09,

Good timing as I am seeing the doctor tomorrow and will ask for this combination of drugs as the last ones he gave me for H.Pylori and GERD had no effect on the BB.

p.s. I accidently bought Diflucan One (fluconazole) for vaginal thrush..

Being a guy and having systemic candida overgrowth, is this tablet any use or should I throw it out... waste of $30 ](*,)
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KeepTrying09
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Post by KeepTrying09 »

Hey Deebas,

Good luck at your doctors tomorrow. Let us know if he is willing to help you.

About the Diflucan, as you mentioned, one dose is for the treatment of vaginal thrush. I wouldn't throw it out, but I wouldn't take it just yet. Save it. Maybe one day you will need to get some more Fluconazole. Then you would have 1 extra pill you could add to that. And by the way, you spent $30 for 1 tablet?!?!?!?! Where in the heck did you buy it? I can't believe Diflucan costs so much in the West! :shock:

Anyway, let me know if your doctor is not willing to help you. I can always *(editied by author)*
Last edited by KeepTrying09 on Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
halitosisux
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Post by halitosisux »

Hey guys, this helicobacter/halitosis subject has been looked into and discussed a lot on here.

Here are a couple of the threads, lots of good feedback in there, and im sure there's many more related threads if you search.

viewtopic.php?t=1875

viewtopic.php?t=1807

I remember reading a couple of proper clinical studies investigating what might be going on, relating to that case study you posted keeptrying.
Most interesting about that case study, if you read carefully, is that the woman's BB was eradicated, despite finding that her helicobacter infection HAD NOT been eradicated. So it must have been relating to her treatment.
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KeepTrying09
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Post by KeepTrying09 »

halitosisux wrote:Most interesting about that case study, if you read carefully, is that the woman's BB was eradicated, despite finding that her helicobacter infection HAD NOT been eradicated. So it must have been relating to her treatment.
I noticed that too. I thought it was interesting because one of the medications she was treated with was Metronidazole.

I really feel like we are finally getting somewhere in regards to understanding and treating chronic halitosis. Thank god for this forum!
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Post by chiki89 »

Hi, has anyone taking fluconazole noticed bad body odor during their treatment? As that seems to be my case. Not quite sure if it is normal :-(
yogs
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Post by yogs »

Hi Guys,
I just wanted to share my experience with H.pylori.

I have been tested for H.pylori twice. The first time, couple of years ago when it was discussed on this forum I went to see my doctor to get tested for it. The Blood test for Antibody titters came out positive. My doctor prescribed me Prevpav (lansoprazole 30-mg, amoxicillin 500-mg, and clarithromycin 500-mg) for 2 weeks, but suggested that I should go for bacteria overgrowth test--Breath Test before I start the meds. I chose to wait for the breath test before taking any meds as I wanted to make sure that was the real cause for my BB. Also, on the other hand, H.plyori was said to be present in most people. The bacteria overgrowth test came out negative. Well, I decided to take Prevpac anyways to see if it helps, but I noticed no change at all in my breath. ](*,)

The second time,couple of weeks ago, I had an endoscopy done to see if I have patches similar to KT’s pictures or any candida signs. Well, the doctor didn’t see any white patches; however, a biopsy for H. pylori turned out to be positive. The doctor was quite surprised by the color of biopsy test (not sure what he meant). He was aware of my previous Prevpac treatment and prescribed me Amoxicillin 500mg x3, Metronidazale 500mg x3, Omeprazole 20mg x 1 daily for 14 days. I finished my course yesterday and I didn’t notice any major change in my breath. I am not sure, in my case if my body had developed resistant to these meds or there is some other underlying cause. I notice that I had severe headaches and fogginess while I was on the meds, which I think could be something related to die offs. :?:

Today, I went for a breath test and have to wait and see what the results will be. I have an appointed with my doctor again in couple of weeks.

Reading all these articles and posts on internet, I feel that there might be a connection. I hope that we are on to something here.
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KeepTrying09
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Post by KeepTrying09 »

chiki89 wrote:Hi, has anyone taking fluconazole noticed bad body odor during their treatment? As that seems to be my case. Not quite sure if it is normal :-(
Hey Chiki89,

I didn't get any bad body odor when I was taking it. But everyones body reacts differently. Also, it could just be die off symptoms, because again everyones die off symptoms are different. Also, and sorry if I sound gross, but if you are a female, a strange body odor could be due to Candida being killed off in the vaginal area. I have no personal experience with this of course, but i've heard stories that yeast infections of the vagina do not smell very pleasant, so if there were any problem in that regard, it might explain any weird odor coming from the body.

Anyway, you mentioned you have been taking Fluconazole for a couple days now with good results in regards to your breath, so I would finish out your treatment.
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KeepTrying09
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Post by KeepTrying09 »

yogs wrote:He was aware of my previous Prevpac treatment and prescribed me Amoxicillin 500mg x3, Metronidazale 500mg x3, Omeprazole 20mg x 1 daily for 14 days. I finished my course yesterday and I didn’t notice any major change in my breath. I am not sure, in my case if my body had developed resistant to these meds or there is some other underlying cause. I notice that I had severe headaches and fogginess while I was on the meds, which I think could be something related to die offs. :?:
Hey Yogs,

Your severe headaches and brain fogginess wouldn't be die off effects from any Candida because you were taking antibiotic medication which targets bacteria, not Candida. I have never heard of people having die off effects from bacteria. But I do know that there is certainly a link between antibiotic use and Candida overgrowth, and there has also been a link between Omeprazole and Candida overgrowth. Perhaps the severe headaches and brain fogginess were because of that. Or perhaps it was just the normal side effects of taking the antibiotic medicine. It's hard to say really...

Also, about becoming resistant to antibiotic treatment, it is a possibility. Your doctor prescribed you Amoxicillin. That is like the granddaddy of all antibiotics. There's a possibility that this antibiotic was not effective for you.

About the research article I posted above, they used a different combination of medications (tetracycline/metronidazole/bismuth). Maybe you should give that a shot and see if it works...
chiki89
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Post by chiki89 »

Hi Keep trying,
thanks for your response, well the bad odor isn't coming from the vagina area, more like it's coming from my sweat -_- but I am guessing it could be a yeast die off effect like you said.My eyes do look kinda weird though, like they are more open than usual.
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Post by yogs »

But I do know that there is certainly a link between antibiotic use and Candida overgrowth,
Antibiotic may have caused the Candida to Flourish? I also had severe right side abdomen pain during the course. Its similar to the symptoms of IBS I think. I had seen the doctor for that but he didn't buy in.
and there has also been a link between Omeprazole and Candida overgrowth. Perhaps the severe headaches and brain fogginess were because of that.


Whats the link between them?
Also, about becoming resistant to antibiotic treatment, it is a possibility. Your doctor prescribed you Amoxicillin. That is like the granddaddy of all antibiotics. There's a possibility that this antibiotic was not effective for you.
That's possible.
About the research article I posted above, they used a different combination of medications (tetracycline/metronidazole/bismuth). Maybe you should give that a shot and see if it works...
I plan to discuss this options and my side efffects with the doctor during my appointed.


Thanks
deebas
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Post by deebas »

KeepTrying09 wrote:Hey Deebas,

Good luck at your doctors tomorrow. Let us know if he is willing to help you.

About the Diflucan, as you mentioned, one dose is for the treatment of vaginal thrush. I wouldn't throw it out, but I wouldn't take it just yet. Save it. Maybe one day you will need to get some more Fluconazole. Then you would have 1 extra pill you could add to that. And by the way, you spent $30 for 1 tablet?!?!?!?! Where in the heck did you buy it? I can't believe Diflucan costs so much in the West! :shock:

Anyway, let me know if your doctor is not willing to help you. I can always pick up the medicine and ship it out to you....
The doctor is pretty decent, I basically tell him what I want and he does a bit of research and then writes a script..

I asked for the tetracycline/metronidazole/bismuth combination that you reported on but apparently bismuth is not available anymore where I live so he said you could substitute Pariet (Rabeprazole sodium) which I already some from before.

Anyway I will let you know how it goes.. I am also going on a no (or very little) grain diet including no alcohol for a few weeks...

and yes, the Diflucan One was $30 from the pharmacy.. they must really rip the women off.,. I assumed that this was different from normal diflucan? Hence would be a waste to take it?
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