BB COMING FROM THE BACK OF OUR THROATS

[Renato]

My BB is caused for a silent reflux halitosis type-3). Every morning I wake up with fluids sensation in my throat and mouth, which obviously give me this horrible taste and BB (confirmed by others).

The worse is my taste, the worst is my breath. I have noticed when my taste is in the worst, is when I have eaten foods rich in proteins and fat(eggs and meat).

I have also noticed when drinking coffe or beer my BB is also worst.

Im lactose and fructose intolerant. So I avoid dairy and fruits/vegetables.


I wash my mouth, scrap my tongue and rub my back throat with my fingers covered with a cotton gauze.

My BB decreased a little, but not disappear. So I decided to find the source of this bb on the back of my throat.
After rubbing with this cotton gauze back there until the point that I feel the tissue which separates the esophagus of the vocal folds, I smelled whatever comes out, but did not smell bad.
(I do not have my palatine tonsils and I have been told to lack of my adenoides,so I ruled out these sources of BB).

Then, I thought that may be my esophagus is covered of bacteria/fungus biofilms.
When exhaling air from my very inside I can smell a little bit of my BB but not completely, so I always have had the feeling of overgrow of these bugs in my esophagus.

I decide to partially swallow a cotton gauze band and pull it out to smell whatever it comes out from my esophagus. I tried that but I did not cover my entire esophagus since I could not control the reflex sensation of passing something big in your throat.However I think I reached at least half way of my esophagus, What I foud is a mid odor but not completely bad, however it was really sticky fluid on it, mostly as mucus or sticky salive. I tried this for three more times.The last time the mucoide material was lessened ( I have PND some times, but not so often).
Despite I did no smell a bad odor from the cotton band, the only remotion of the mucoide stuff, reduced my BB in about 50% I think. I ate something after the procedure, and the bad taste did not come immediately as always does.

I think this is what is happening for halitosis type-3. The main source of BB is the esophagus.

Since I did not cover the entire esophagus, I could not get completely rid of my BB. I have also noticed that the BB comes back as usual next day. This is because my reflux problem is not fixed yet.


Has somebody suffering with reflux problems and BB tried this procedure?

How people clean the esophagus without using antibiotics(which usually makes the bugs resistant to them)?

Please tell your experience

[iva]

Renato

sometimes I use cotton pad to clean my throat as far as I can reach, that gives me some extra bb free time. I have seen yogas do this cleaning of oesophagus by swallowing smth, but its dangerous for a non experienced person. What we should do is rech some bacteria balance (as u know our bb is due to bacterial activity), but that is soooo hard to do

[Renato]

Ok. definitely my esophagus is the source of my BB.


This morning I confirmed my theory, the Permanent BB source is coming from my esophagus, of course as a consequence of my reflux problem. After I woke up, I felt this terrible BB, I had a shower and scrapped my tongue, rubbed my back throat, gargled with HP and brushed my teeth. After this procedure I still feel bad taste and when exhaling air from my deep inside I could smell my BB (just on mornings I'm able to smell this).
So I decided to repeat the cotton band swallowing procedure. What I found after pulling it out was horrible, This time I could smell a very bad odor.
I repeated this three times and the bad taste sensation almost disappear, the bad odor in the cotton band was also lessened. My bad taste and I think my BB was significantly reduced instantly.

When I returned from work this night I went to the bathroom and smell the cotton band I used in the morning, which I cleaned and wash before going to work, the horrible smell was still there. Now, certainly I know why mouth washes did not stop my BB. I also know now what people smell when I talk.

I will keep this procedure sometime and see if I can reduce my BB for a while. (nothing has worked for me before).

Next time, perhaps I can try it using some pre wet cotton band with 1% HP to really clean that area. This task is going to be difficult since I found that almost traces of HP, peppermint, chlorite, cinnamon, etc upset my stomach and exacerbate my reflux.

[halitosisux]

Renato, do you not think its more likely to be the constant swallowing of the stench on your tongue dorsum that causes the mucousy layer inside your esophagus to smell the way it does, as opposed to vice-versa? The improvements to your breath/taste after using your cleaning procedure might simply be due to the fact that its also cleaning the very far back of your tongue in a way which tongue scrapers could never possibly do.

Please dont think im dismissing anything here, im just curious to hear your thoughts on this.

[Renato]

Dear halitosisux


Well, I tried to rub the very back of my throat with a cotton gauze, gargled with HP and after all scrapping tongue thing, my breath is still terrible. When smelling the cotton band after pulling it out , the entire band smells bad. Aslo, my BB is worse with certain foods, coincidentally these foods also cause me the silent reflux. So why not think that the rich source of nutrients in esophagus, tongue and throat may cause bacterial overgrowth. Certainly, bacteria is in all these parts, but the esophagus is hard to clean/scrap.

[macks86]

hello

can you describe more about th ecotton band and how you do this. i have a very persisant severe morning breath like smell throgughout the day even after vigorous cleaning. i can still smell it coming from the back of mouth after much scraping, brushing etc. i am definately going to give this a go

[halitosisux]

Renato, yes it may be a vicious circle beginning with reflux contents entering your throat area increasing the levels of bacterial activity there which then get swallowed, lining your esphagus with this odour. That's the most probable explanation.

Do you get much heartburn or discomfort with this refluxing? Have you ever tried HCL to see whether reducing the pH of this reflux helps?

Remember that silent reflux is diagnosed by its secondary symptoms, i.e. sinus problems, and not from any actual reflux. But you say you are always aware of your reflux.

No doubt you've been through the various GI tests, so there's no hernias or structural abnormalities which might be trapping bacteria and debris.

It would be interesting if anyone else who has tried this gauze cleaning/swallowing technique, that doesnt suspect any reflux problems, to hear what they find.

Renato have you ever tried a course of metronidazole? Did it make any difference?

[Renato]

hello

can you describe more about th ecotton band and how you do this. i have a very persisant severe morning breath like smell throgughout the day even after vigorous cleaning. i can still smell it coming from the back of mouth after much scraping, brushing etc. i am definately going to give this a go

Hi macks86,

I used two sterile cotton gauzes (like this, http://www.nail-solutions.co.uk/acatalog/gauze_pads.jpg ), which I stretch them along and tie them together, making a small knot in the end to facilitate the swallowing. I wet it entirely with water and put a segment of the cotton strip in my mouth, next I try to swallow it with a sip of water, immediately, I introduce some more of this strip and take another sip. When one of the cotton strip is almost entirely swallowed, I slowly pull it out from the attached extra cotton strip (I used a cotton gauze, because it is very resistant and gives me confidence that it will not break out during the withdrawal.

At this point, you should try to relax the esophagus, otherwise your esophageal sphincter will be contracted and difficult to remove it.
However, I also tried to contract my esophagous a little bit to remove as much as possible of the mucoid stuff. I rinse the strip and tried two o more times until the smell is lessened.

You may smell a midle odor, but after some time the strip will smell horrible, more than the just licking your hand).

If it turns positive, then you may have a problem in your stomach, perhaps a silent reflux as mine.

[Renato]

[quote="

Do you get much heartburn or discomfort with this refluxing? Have you ever tried HCL to see whether reducing the pH of this reflux helps?

Renato have you ever tried a course of metronidazole? Did it make any difference?[/quote]

MY reflux is silent, I do not have any heartburn, but the fluids from my stomach reach my throat and perhaps sinuses when lying down. However, I also feel this reflux sensation along the day.

So far my GE has not detected this reflux problems because she has focused on pH issues. But I suspect that my reflux (some called regurgitation problems) is due to an anormal low esophageal sphincter (too relaxed) more than overproduction of acid.

Very simple test is drinking some water, after drinking a cup of water you may feel the water come up several times before it finally goes down ( no burning sansation), just the water feeling in your esophagus. I feel the same thing after eating anything. You may also notice a lot of salive on your pillow every morning if you don't use at least three-five pillows.

Many people here may not know they have silent reflux.


Oral antibiotics reduced 90% of my BB for a while before it comes back again and some times worst, but my silent reflux does not change a bit. Which means, fluids still in esophagus and throat, but in a decreased bacterial environment, nutrients are not totally converted in sulfurs.

I have not used Metronidazole, but for sure it will stop my BB for a while.

[KeepTrying09]

Hey Renato,

An upper endoscopy should reveal if you have a loose sphincter muscle between your stomach and esophagus. I seem to recall you mentioning that you've had an endoscopy before. If so, did it not reveal this problem for you?

[aydinmur]

MY reflux is silent, I do not have any heartburn, but the fluids from my stomach reach my throat ...snip...

I would like to add somethings that may be general interest:

0.12 ml/min gas leaks out from stomach to esophageus if the person is lie on bed. 0.68 ml/min gas leaks if the person is sitting. These amounts are for healthly persons.

Question :
Does your halitosis disappear when you lie down?

If answer is yes , think type 3 halitosis.

Hope helps

- Murat Aydin

[Renato]

Hey Renato,

An upper endoscopy should reveal if you have a loose sphincter muscle between your stomach and esophagus. I seem to recall you mentioning that you've had an endoscopy before. If so, did it not reveal this problem for you?

I have been done two upper endoscopies, none of them revealed acid reflux, however the recent one showed a patulous lower esophageal sphincter. My GE thinks is not enough to diagnose silent reflux.

Even after this finding, GE said, if there is not damage of the esophagus by acids, then surgery of the esophageal sphincter is not justify. They do not care about BB.

[Renato]

MY reflux is silent, I do not have any heartburn, but the fluids from my stomach reach my throat ...snip...

I would like to add somethings that may be general interest:

0.12 ml/min gas leaks out from stomach to esophageus if the person is lie on bed. 0.68 ml/min gas leaks if the person is sitting. These amounts are for healthly persons.

Question :
Does your halitosis disappear when you lie down?

If answer is yes , think type 3 halitosis.

Hope helps

- Murat Aydin

Dear Murat


My halitosis is in my entire life, no matter what, when lying down is worst.

The BB is worse when my stomach is upset. I may also have overgrowth of bacteria in intestines which may travel to esophagus when refluxing.

Do you recommend me a relaxant to clean my digestive tube and see if this lessen my reflux or BB.

[KeepTrying09]

Even after this finding, GE said, if there is not damage of the esophagus by acids, then surgery of the esophageal sphincter is not justify. They do not care about BB.

I don't think it's that they don't care about bad breath (although a lot of them are seriously misinformed and undereducated about it). I think your doctor does not want to do the surgery because surgery is dangerous. All kinds of things can go wrong on the operating table, which is why doctors don't really opt for surgery unless they feel the risks would outweigh the benefits.

Unfortunately they see bad breath as a cosmetic disease, something that can be cleared up easily by proper oral hygiene. So of course they are not going to opt for surgery in that case. It really is horrible. If only they knew how much pain bb sufferers go though, maybe they'd start getting a little more serious about it.

You asked something about a relaxant to clean your digestive tract. Do you mean a laxative? I'm not aware of any relaxants that can clean the digestive track. If you want to clean your colon, perhaps colonic hydrotherapy would be the route you should take. Just don't go overboard and start doing it every week, it can disrupt your body's natural peristalsis.

[Renato]

Dear halitosisux


Well, I tried to rub the very back of my throat with a cotton gauze, gargled with HP and after all scrapping tongue thing, my breath is still terrible. When smelling the cotton band after pulling it out , the entire band smells bad. Aslo, my BB is worse with certain foods, coincidentally these foods also cause me the silent reflux. So why not think that the rich source of nutrients in esophagus, tongue and throat may cause bacterial overgrowth. Certainly, bacteria is in all these parts, but the esophagus is hard to clean/scrap.

It has been some time since I started a technique to verify the origen of BB in my esophagus. At some point I've stated that my BB came from my esophagus rather than my throat or tongue.Of course, I also have BB from throat and tongue but easly eliminated with mouth washes.

OK. this bad odor from my esophagus is not permanent. I mean, some times when smelling the cotton strip does not smell bad even in mornings, but is very sticky and mucoid, this may facilitate the retention of food debris and create bacterial and perhaps candida biofilms.

What I have really noticed is that when eating food which worsen my reflux problem ( fatty food, tomatoes, coffe etc) and exacerbates the bad odor in my esophagus. I've also had complains ofbad odor when burping.
So now Im thinking that this silent reflux, which causes all this unbalance of bactarial ecology and BB, may be caused by bacterial overgrowth in my intestines.

From my possible cause of BB check list, my next try will be SIBO.

So far I had been done and tested for:

(After seeing many dentists and confirming there was nothing wrong with my teeth)

1-Two esophageal endoscopies
2-Two ENT appoinment (sinuses examination)
3-Palatine tonsils removed
4-No adenoides found
5-Esophageal motility normal.
6-Stomach emptying normal
7-PH in esophagus and stomach normal.
8-Normal erosion of the gastric mucosa.
9-My silent reflux does not responde to PPIs, carefate, melox, etc.


Im fructose and lactose intolerant.

I wonder if is there a special test for esophageal sphincters fuction.

Question to ask in my next Dr. appointment.