The role of Salivary IgA in Oral microbial Ecology

[sadman]

FYI

http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/content/full/62/1/71

http://www.articlesbase.com/alternative ... 61652.html

[aydinmur]

FYI
http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/content/full/62/1/71

Halitosux
Sadman gave very good sources. You asked me what factors affect on oral ecology. See 76.th page of this paper.
http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/reprint/62/1/71
Thanks Sadman.
- Murat

[halitosisux]

Aydinmur thanks. I started reading this a few days ago but became totally lost. I just spent the last couple of hours reading it again, and with my mind a bit clearer its made a bit more sense. I'll try to read a bit of it each day. Its facinating to read how many different ecological factors there are and how subtle, yet important, their variations and effects can be.

It's easy to see how important the ecology is when even the subtle variations in the anatomy and structure and habitat within the mouth results in different microbial communities.

Its just so incredible to see how so much is known about the microbiology of the mouth, and yet for some people there are still no answers. Well, maybe there is but its about making the individual connection.

Aydinmur, if you see this post, do you have any information on the use of Xylitol?

[aydinmur]

Aydinmur, if you see this post, do you have any information on the use of Xylitol?

Yes I saw Xylitol subject. There is not enough publication on this matter. But we know that: Xylitol turns to alcohools, You know alcochols are a fuel for odorigenic bacteria. Eventually xylitol makes halitosis in background, but it is masked by good taste/smell by Xylitol.

I dont support the idea use of Xylitol.
- Murat

[halitosisux]

Aydinmur, I was reading about Blis k12 type probiotic therapy relating to another thread. What are your views on this type of approach to trying to introduce new species of bacteria into an already established microbial flora?

A very simple question to ask you, but if we could go back to the day we were born and lead exactly the same lives again, would the same microbial flora eventually become established if we were to start all over again? Is the microbial population which eventually inhabits our mouth pre-destined according to our individual habitat and ecology which we happen to provide it with? Or is there also some randomness to the process? Or both maybe?

Having read more of the above paper, I understand how the establishment of microbial flora is a complex process of interactions and developments, influenced by the different stages of ageing and development that affect the ecology (such as the eruption of teeth etc).

But im curious to understand whether this is all a pre-destined outcome or not. If it isnt then why cant our bacterial populations be permanently altered to one which is simply more favourable with regards to bad breath? There was a post recently which showed how the gut microflora can be permanently "altered" by the introduction of a donor's stool sample. So why not in the mouth?

The key word here is PERMANENT. Because we all know that changes can occur temporarily, as happens when we take antibiotics for example. But can taking antibiotics cause permanent changes or are changes generally only temporary (unless of course some ecological factor happens to change at the same time).

[aydinmur]

Aydinmur, I was reading about Blis k12 type probiotic therapy relating to another thread. What are your views on this type of approach to trying to introduce new species of bacteria into an already established microbial flora?

This looks like to give an external wake up signal to a system. I personally support the idea of probiotic usage. Dont ask its indications, what probiotics can be used for.

A very simple question to ask you, but if we could go back to the day we were born and lead exactly the same lives again, would the same microbial flora eventually become established if we were to start all over again? Is the microbial population which eventually inhabits our mouth pre-destined according to our individual habitat and ecology which we happen to provide it with? Or is there also some randomness to the process? Or both maybe?

If we had re-run our life, we would have the same bacterial profile. There is not randomness. Same ecology invites the same bacteria.

But im curious to understand whether this is all a pre-destined outcome or not. If it isnt then why cant our bacterial populations be permanently altered to one which is simply more favourable with regards to bad breath?

For any person, his existence, his life style, general health, his sleep times, his feeding, diet, his immun system, endocrin system, water content, blood circulation speed, defecation habits, neural reflexes, immun reflexes determine his gut flora. Where is destiny here? Perhaps we can place the destiny in a bigger picture, or every picture. I have no idea.
Say me Halitosux, why dont babeis have halitosis despite they have similar bacterial profile ? I look for an answer for this question.

There was a post recently which showed how the gut microflora can be permanently "altered" by the introduction of a donor's stool sample. So why not in the mouth?

Im not aware about this. Please share with me.

The key word here is PERMANENT. Because we all know that changes can occur temporarily, as happens when we take antibiotics for example. But can taking antibiotics cause permanent changes or are changes generally only temporary (unless of course some ecological factor happens to change at the same time).

There is not pemanent change in microbial floras with antibiotics
-Murat

[halitosisux]

Aydinmur thankyou for your detailed reply.
Understanding that our bacterial profile is determined purely by our individuality and not by chance encounters with different microbial species is quite reassuring to know.

In typical situations of chronic bad breath,
I can understand now how our ecology determines everything with regards to our microbiology and how various factors and "ecological determinants", such as our health and the habitat that is provided, will determine whether our breath smells good or bad.

Your point about healthy babies never having bad breath despite having similar bacterial profiles to adults is interesting. This is proof that the healthy ecology which a baby is likely to have is what keeps their breath fresh.

Its also good to know that antibiotics DO NOT permanently disrupt our bacterial profiles, except of course for bacteria involved in disease processes, such as helicobacter pylori.

We all hear how important it is to take probiotics during and after a course of antibiotics, but no doubt the microbial flora will eventually revert to its prior state whether we do or not.

Will be very interesting to hear your comments on this though:-
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/scien ... ral&src=me
I've pasted the link to this because I bookmarked it, but it was someone else who discovered it and posted it, but I cant find the thread.

[sadman]

There was a post recently which showed how the gut microflora can be permanently "altered" by the introduction of a donor's stool sample. So why not in the mouth?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13micro.html

Fecal transplant is used to treat Pseudomembranous colitis which , sometimes called antibiotic-associated colitis or C. difficile colitis, is an inflammatory condition of the colon that occurs in some people who have received antibiotics.

The inflammation in pseudomembranous colitis is almost always associated with an overgrowth of the bacterium Clostridium difficile (C. difficile), although in rare cases, other organisms can be involved. Antibiotics can lead to pseudomembranous colitis by disturbing the normal bacterial balance within your colon, which facilitates the colonization and growth of C. difficile or other bacteria. Potent toxins are released when these bacteria become numerous, causing inflammation of your colon.

The most commonly used antibiotics associated with pseudomembranous colitis are fluoroquinolones, penicillins, lincosamides such as clindamycin, and cephalosporins. However, virtually any antibiotic can cause pseudomembranous colitis. Pseudomembranous colitis has also been associated with antibiotics that you may receive before an operation to prevent surgery-related infections. That antibiotic side effect is not permanent so when fecal transplant is used , the gut microflora returns to the previous (pre-antibiotic use) state . That's not the case with Mouth flora which balance is permanently controlled by an ecology which is influenced by many factors either hereditary or acquired , so when we use Probiotic to transplant the good bacteria to the mouth , those bacteria can not replace the bad bacteria because the ecology of that individual mouth does not favor their growth . One important factor that influence the ecology I think is the Saliva IgA :

http://www.breathdoc.com/articles/pdf/o ... spects.pdf

There is report that Transfer Factor can increase the Saliva IgA by 73% and if that's true , it can help to change the mouth ecology to one that favors the good bacteria transplant .

[halitosisux]

Sadman, thanx for your reply. Some really good info there. But I still dont see how the gut can can be any different to the mouth when they both have ecologies, and for the gut to be capable of disruption or alteration of its bacterial profile, but yet in the mouth it is not possible to do so.

I guess in the gut it is simply less to do with ecology and more to do with self-regulation. The mouth, in comparision, as you've pointed out, is constantly bathed in saliva, containing IgA for example, and deficiencies of which have been shown to lead to bacterial overgrowth. Oxygen in saliva is another important ecological determinant, as too are the various enzymes saliva contains.

So its far easier for disruptions to occur in the gut - which is bad because it can easily lead to diseases such as pseudomembranous colitis. But then that means its possible to restore or alter the situation back again for the good.

I think I'm beginning to understand it now.

What is transfer factor?

[aydinmur]

I still dont see how the gut can can be any different to the mouth when they both have ecologies, and for the gut to be capable of disruption or alteration of its bacterial profile, but yet in the mouth it is not possible to do so.

halitosisux

You say=
The gut can change its bacterial profile. The mouth can not change its bacterial profile.

Correct me if I misunderstand. ?
- Murat

[halitosisux]

Aydinmur, from what I've understood, the gut can change its bacterial profile, but the mouth cannot. I dont know whether this is correct or not though. I would like to learn more about such key concepts in the understanding and dealing with this problem.

I understand that the mouth will evolve its bacterial profile according to the ecology and the habitat that is present.

Recently, you asked the question whether or not bad breath is contageous from kissing etc. I dont know about anyone else, but to me that's the single most important question on this subject.

[sadman]

Halito :

What is transfer factor?

Transfer factors - or "immune memory molecules," were introduced to us from our mother’s milk or colostrum, which is the richest source of concentrated transfer factors known to scientists. Transfer factors in colostrum have the sole purpose of transferring immunity from the mother to the baby’s immature immune system :

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... =firefox-a

Halito :

But I still dont see how the gut can can be any different to the mouth when they both have ecologies, and for the gut to be capable of disruption or alteration of its bacterial profile, but yet in the mouth it is not possible to do so.

There is no difference between the change of the gut and the mouth flora in response to extrinsic factor such as antibiotic . Both can be altered temporarily by it and both will return to the SAME previous , pre antibiotic use state when the antibiotic was discontinued . In the gut because the C. Difficile bacteria which is resistant to most antibiotics sometimes took over the gut microflora and caused Pseudomembranous Colitis , we have to use Fecal transplant to RESET the gut flora to the SAME previous state .We did not change the ecology or the flora of the gut with Fecal Transplant,we just reset it . In the mouth , the antibiotic did kill the bad bacteria and brought some bad breath relief but when it was discontinued , because the mouth ecology is still the SAME , the mouth flora will RESET to the SAME previous state of imbalance and the good bacteria induced by Probiotic can not take over . That's the reason why Blis12 did not work for all of those who have used it . Hope all this helps .

[Phantasist]

Sadman,
If I understand you correctly, the microfloral ecology is individually SET in both the mouth and the colon, and if either one is disturbed, they will eventually RESET to their prior state. So the colon ecology can be RESET to its prior normal state, which presumably was healthy, but the microbial environment of the mouth will revert to its abnormal (or bad breath) state even if it is altered by antibacterial substances or probiotics. This is not very encouraging, since it implies that all of us have a natural microfloral ecology in our mouths due to certain factors in our bodies, and in some of us this natural (normal) ecology is such that it produces an overgrowth of anaerobic bacteria and therefore bad breath.

[halitosisux]

Sadman, thanks for your reply there. I didn't see it until now. What you said makes total sense.

To understand all this we need to understand the concept of homeostasis and all the processes and interactions with which it is arrived at. All the various biological factors in the mouth determine this state of microbial equilibrium.

We're constantly exposed to all the known species of bacteria, but yet our oral flora tends to always stay the same. Even if we nuke it with antibiotics or chlorhexidine it will revert to its previous state, as we all know (unless some chronic disease situation is the underlying cause which happens to get eradicated during this time, such as helicobacter pylori or an area of gum disease). So trying to force the flora into changing by the introduction of different microbial species is totally futile. But its probably feasible to temporarily alter our flora by force, by an ongoing antibacterial and probiotic combination, such as BLIS or any other favourable bacteria.

I still dont understand how a bacteria in the gut can take over though, but I guess there's far more to it than just bacteria taking over. There's disease processes too that sustain the situation, along with probably many other factors.

But if a bacteria can simply just take over in the gut, requiring a "resetting" by fecal transplant, then why is it totally unfeasible to introduce a new species of beneficial bacteria into the mouth that takes over in a beneficial way? (for argument's sake)

[Phantasist]

Halitosisux,
A possible answer to your last question is that the mouth is constantly bathed in saliva, and it is likely that the ingredients in saliva determine the oral environment. If the oral ecology is friendly to anaerobic bacteria, they will always be the dominant strain. Neither antibacterial rinses nor the introduction of beneficial bacteria, such as oral probiotics, would be a permanent solution because as soon as the intervention is discontinued, the oral ecology will revert to its prior state.
If what I say is correct, then the only way to change the oral ecology permanently would be to change the components of the saliva, but that is probably impossible.
In the colon there is no saliva, which means that the ecology is determined in a different way.