MAIN FACTOR FOR EXTREME BB?(FECAL)

[Badluck01]

Hello,
I'm new in this forum and have chosen this place to explain my symptoms and my history.

I'm 21 years old and just before summer I noticed people started to react to my breath when I was eating (sitting face to face) and would sometimes cough when I spoke. Back then I didn't think off the worst because I was in school and thought I just needed some dental hygiene appointment as I hadn't been there in a while.

Fast forward 2 months and I started working full-time and noticed the reactions where getting stronger and now the smell could be felt 1m/2m away if I spoke or if I was eating. Also started to get some comments about my breath which smelled like feces. (Note that at this point I couldn't smell it).

Then got progressively worse and I started having these "moments" usually 1h after lunch and into the rest of the afternoon as I started to emit a foul odor that seemed to come from my mouth even if it was closed and people started reacting several meters away saying it smelled like death. I was using all kinds of mouthwashes including Therabreath and Cb12 to no avail, although one thing that I remember is one time I drank yogurt the smell changed from fecal to acidic momentarilly.

In November I noticed I had heartburn and doctor prescribed omeoprazole which didn't seem to affect smell. Then in late December all turned for the worst. The breath I had was toxic, room filling almost instantly and people could smell it far away.

At this time GERD got worst (almost always feel something slightly burning in throat or that there is something there) and also bloating even thought I can't pass gas easily.

So here's what I've tried/done without result, by order:

Dental appointment (cleaning and checking)
Therabreath and tongue scrapping
Sinus irrigation (salts or grapeseed extract)
Breathing techniques
Cleaning tonsils
K12 mouth supplements
Zinc
B12 vitamin
Natural yogurt with probiotics

Symptoms:

White tongue
Post nasal drop (constant and gets worse with reflux)
GERD
Bloating, even though I go to toilet 2/3 times a day now

I always thought it was due to the tonsils stones because I've always had them but after deep cleaning the cripts and finding some my breath stayed the same. However when I press my right tonsil in a certain place a yellow fish/fecal smell liquid comes out but I don't think it can cause breath like this.

My worst moments seem to be during morning, when lay down or sometimes after eating or even fasting. I think there's a correlation with GERD because sometimes at the same time I have bowel movements i feel something passing my throat and reactions from people get worse.

Could gas from intestines go up my stomach and cause the smell. Stressful situations seem to affect it as well, and maybe even cold weather ??

This has become a nightmare, don't wish this on anyone, don't go out anymore but I live with other people and it's problematic.

Could it be TMAU ?? (One of my worst episodes I was sweating a lot. But maybe I can't smell it)
I'm cutting on red meat and don't drink alcohol or smoke.
I will try some vitamin B2 and see if does something

Don't know what to do anymore, doctors don't seem to know anything about this and treat me just for the other symptoms trying to rush me out
It's getting worse every day now. Didn't even know this was possible.
Have found some people with extreme cases like this reaching out for help but no solution.

Anyone like this
Long post but had to write it

I read through your long post. You case is 100% as mine. It's not ur tonsils..matter of fact they're helping. I had a tonsillectomy in hopes of a cure. Worse decision ever..got 10x worse.

It only gets worse.. nothing reduces the smell for me. Exact symptoms with urs . Just sad.

@Tee
Surprised to see someone with the same simptoms. I have thought about a tonsillectomy but then started to realise the intensity of the smell oscilated too suddenly to be stones.

Do you feel the smell gets worst when you are bloated? And does the reflux get stronger when this happens?

Last night I drank lots of water but still woke up smelling a lot. Then ate outmeal and went to the toilet (I've been taking meds for constipation). Then I noticed the extreme smell reduced and was left with the regular (still very strong) odor.

Wasn't bloated for the rest of the day, and appart from a few moments after lunch nothing major happened.
Late afternoon had some bread. 2 hours later sudenly started to bloat and feel the reflux. The noxious smell then appeared.

There's something relating Bloating, GERD, Constipation and maybe dehydration (?). Now writting this after dinner I've gone to the toilet but was constipated. I'm now bloated and the smell is getting stronger, along with the reflux.

In your case could the antibiotics from surgery have affected intestinal bacteria ?

This is something really bad to live with. Appreciate your response, maybe we could cross check information and find something.

[Stevian]

@ Badluck01

I’m not pretending to offer medical advice, and not necessarily to do with bb, but I solved my constipation (and ibs) with added dietary fiber and exercise. Not sure if those would help your case,but it does help many people.

I also solved my GERD by losing about 100 lb of body weight. No, not saying you’re overweight or obese, but many GERD sufferers are.

Neither of the above solutions had any positive or negative effect on my halitosis that I could tell. I’m pretty sure my bb is mostly or wholly intra-oral.

[Badluck01]

@ Badluck01

I’m not pretending to offer medical advice, and not necessarily to do with bb, but I solved my constipation (and ibs) with added dietary fiber and exercise. Not sure if those would help your case,but it does help many people.

I also solved my GERD by losing about 100 lb of body weight. No, not saying you’re overweight or obese, but many GERD sufferers are.

Neither of the above solutions had any positive or negative effect on my halitosis that I could tell. I’m pretty sure my bb is mostly or wholly intra-oral.

Hello Stevian,

I currently feel that my smell gets worse when I'm constipated and I've been trying to rectify it in that way too.
It seems that I have a fecal odor and sometimes suddenly release an even stronger, almost toxic, smell (have confirmed this happens with the people I live with). There are some cases on curezone with similar problem.

This sudden stronger smell is starting to be more frequent though. Maybe there are two different smell problems or one causing this two ocurrences.
Actually I'm quite skinny, can't do much in that respect.

Seems like your case is a bit different. What sets me apart are these irregular episodes, so starting to think it's not mainly an intra-oral problem.

[Tee]

@badluck01

Asides Chronic PND, tongue coating (which I solve using Glycerin and Borax) I really do not have any other symptoms.
I previously had a serious case of LPR (Self diagnosed tho) or silent reflux..this was solve by taking 2x 500mg Betaine HCl pills after meals. Within a week, the reflux symptoms disappear till date( I've had these for many years).

However it hasn't solved or improved my room filling Nasal and oral bad breath.

I've had countless tests and 2 major surgeries for this. Results shows I'm perfectly ok. Our case maybe in the blood, bacterial or genetic.

It's sad.

[Stevian]

@ Tee

Have you ever had any oral microbiology work done? I’m having oral swabs tested at a lab in Toronto. Should have some analysis in a week or so. $110 to take the samples and ship them. Lab fee $200. $310 in Canadian dollars. About $250 USD.

Yes, there at least hundreds of strains of bacteria in any human oral cavity. About a dozen strains are highly correlated with halitosis. The next step, if indicated, would be a customized prescription antibiotic oral rinse, followed a course of by 0.2% chlorhexadine rinse, followed by oral probiotics.

[telpar]

@stevian take a look at this post by Aydin Murat

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2990&p=27819&hilit=bird#p27819

" Ecology is the unique key of type 1 halitosis. Ecology determinates
1- bacterial profile
2- number of each bacterium in that flora
3- metabolic pathway of each bacterial species in that flora
4- phenotype of each bacteria

Here, metabolic pathway describes (a) duration within day (b) power (c) kind of the odor of that flora.

Can we see bird in front of butcher's shop ? No.
But we can see cats there. Meat invites cat but not birds. Oral ecology may or may not invite odorigenic bacteria there. For this reason treatment of type 1 halitosis is not antimicrobic intervention to mouth. Microbes return to that mouth if ecology has not restored.

- Murat Aydýn"

[Badluck01]

@badluck01

Asides Chronic PND, tongue coating (which I solve using Glycerin and Borax) I really do not have any other symptoms.
I previously had a serious case of LPR (Self diagnosed tho) or silent reflux..this was solve by taking 2x 500mg Betaine HCl pills after meals. Within a week, the reflux symptoms disappear till date( I've had these for many years).

However it hasn't solved or improved my room filling Nasal and oral bad breath.

I've had countless tests and 2 major surgeries for this. Results shows I'm perfectly ok. Our case maybe in the blood, bacterial or genetic.

It's sad.

Have you ever had your sinuses checked?
Found this case on the internet, seems interesting enough, but still not sure

https://www.ibsgroup.org/threads/cure-f ... ng.353172/

[telpar]

It is absurd to have to do complicated and expensive tests when a cysteine challenge test would be enough to determine whether halitosis is intraoral or not.

[Stevian]

@ telpar

Not necessarily.

If I go to any dentist or medical doctor in my metro area, likely they’ll have no idea what a cysteine challenge is, nor be at all interested in finding out. This is very obscure information for most dental or medical practitioners, and in any case it’s totally unnecessary to source an obscure test when very simple and inexpensive tests with 0.12% or 0.2% chlorhexadine, diluted hydrogen peroxide, or diluted unscented household bleach can fulfill the same purpose.

I do think many of us, including myself at times, fall into the either/or trap of thinking that breath odor can only be of a single origin in a particular person’s case. There’s nothing that says a person cannot at various times suffer intra-oral or extra-oral, or even some of both simultaneously, and then there’s the often overlooked fact that in most cases breath odor fluctuates significantly throughout the day.

The purpose of microbiology analysis is to customize the antibiotic rinse to target the implicated strains of bacteria.
True, if the oral ecology is favorable to pathenogenic bacteria, likely they’ll eventually return. Thus the purpose of following the antibiotic and chlorhexadine rinse regimens with oral/dental probiotics. Yes, if the probiotics do the job they still may need to be continued indefinitely. A significant cost there, for sure.

Your thoughts?

[Badluck01]

Quick question
Drank from a plastic water bottle a few hours ago.
Now when opening it literally smells like bottled gas. Anyone experienced this ?

[Tee]

@Badluck01

My sinus was checked using CT scan and X-ray. Turns out I had enlarged inferior turbinates due to Rhinitis, no other problems were found .
That's not responsible for halitosis.

[telpar]

@ telpar

Not necessarily.

If I go to any dentist or medical doctor in my metro area, likely they’ll have no idea what a cysteine challenge is, nor be at all interested in finding out. This is very obscure information for most dental or medical practitioners, and in any case it’s totally unnecessary to source an obscure test when very simple and inexpensive tests with 0.12% or 0.2% chlorhexadine, diluted hydrogen peroxide, or diluted unscented household bleach can fulfill the same purpose.

The purpose of the cysteine ​​challenge test is to check to what extent the bacteria present in the mouth are capable of producing an unpleasant odor.

So, if a person does not have bad breath right now, but after a cysteine ​​mouth rinse they have bad breath, it means that person is definitely suffering from type 1 bad breath.

It is also a useful test to check how bad breath decreases with oral hygiene so that you can determine if a person has only intraoral bad breath or a mix of intraoral and extraoral halitosis.

Unfortunately, dentists are unfamiliar with this type of test and do not have the necessary tools.
This is a problem for the university and the public health services. The university should teach dentists how to diagnose and treat intraoral bad breath, and the public health service should be more careful about preventing the expensive tests that are often prescribed to diagnose bad breath.

Another problem is that people suffering from bad breath are too shameful to require proper care. We have associations of asmhatic, celiac, diabetic, etc. people. But there are no associations of people with halitosis. Nobody would go to the media and say "I have bad breath and we have no cure". So we have no rapresentants in the istitutions. We are stakeholder without voice.

I do think many of us, including myself at times, fall into the either/or trap of thinking that breath odor can only be of a single origin in a particular person’s case. There’s nothing that says a person cannot at various times suffer intra-oral or extra-oral, or even some of both simultaneously, and then there’s the often overlooked fact that in most cases breath odor fluctuates significantly throughout the day.

The purpose of microbiology analysis is to customize the antibiotic rinse to target the implicated strains of bacteria.
True, if the oral ecology is favorable to pathenogenic bacteria, likely they’ll eventually return. Thus the purpose of following the antibiotic and chlorhexadine rinse regimens with oral/dental probiotics. Yes, if the probiotics do the job they still may need to be continued indefinitely. A significant cost there, for sure.

Your thoughts?

If ecology fails, the solution is not antibiotic.
For example, people with orthodontic devices often have heavy breath.
If at that time they had a microbiotic test of saliva, they would find many bacteria that smell.

A few days after the removal of the dental bracket, the heavy breath disappears. What has changed? Not the bacteria, but ecology.

It's the same for us, I suppose.

First of all we should have a sure diagnosis of halitosis.

If we find out that the halitosis is type 1, then we can make some hypotheses:

1) Is the culprit the anatomy of the language?
2) Are my teeth too close to each other?
3) Is my mouth dry?
And so on.

If we find out that the halitosis is not intraoral, then we can start looking out of the mouth.
For example, I have a bit of bullous concha. It is a very common anatomical condition (one third of people has). I don't want surgery for that. But if I were sure that my bad breath is like 2, then I would immediately go to a otorhinolariology by praying to do surgery.

In conclusion, my friend, we don't need a cure. We don't need to try together with medicines. First of all we need a diagnosis, or at least the very clear clue to where to look for.
The first step should be to establish, for sure, if our bad breathing is intraoral, extraoral or both
It would take a few more money, a few minutes. Unfortunately we have no one who wants to hear.
We are alone.
But I'm an optimistic boy. As I wrote in another topic, in 2022 I am starting the search for a diagnosis in Italian clinical universities. I will visit all the professors that I know of course they are doing research on bad breath asking for help.

[Badluck01]

@Badluck01

My sinus was checked using CT scan and X-ray. Turns out I had enlarged inferior turbinates due to Rhinitis, no other problems were found .
That's not responsible for halitosis.

Thought maybe a bacteria pocket in there could create a strong smell.
My case is getting worst by the week. Did your smell eventually stabilize?

[Stevian]

@ telpar

Not necessarily.

If I go to any dentist or medical doctor in my metro area, likely they’ll have no idea what a cysteine challenge is, nor be at all interested in finding out. This is very obscure information for most dental or medical practitioners, and in any case it’s totally unnecessary to source an obscure test when very simple and inexpensive tests with 0.12% or 0.2% chlorhexadine, diluted hydrogen peroxide, or diluted unscented household bleach can fulfill the same purpose.

The purpose of the cysteine ​​challenge test is to check to what extent the bacteria present in the mouth are capable of producing an unpleasant odor.

So, if a person does not have bad breath right now, but after a cysteine ​​mouth rinse they have bad breath, it means that person is definitely suffering from type 1 bad breath.

It is also a useful test to check how bad breath decreases with oral hygiene so that you can determine if a person has only intraoral bad breath or a mix of intraoral and extraoral halitosis.

Unfortunately, dentists are unfamiliar with this type of test and do not have the necessary tools.
This is a problem for the university and the public health services. The university should teach dentists how to diagnose and treat intraoral bad breath, and the public health service should be more careful about preventing the expensive tests that are often prescribed to diagnose bad breath.

Another problem is that people suffering from bad breath are too shameful to require proper care. We have associations of asmhatic, celiac, diabetic, etc. people. But there are no associations of people with halitosis. Nobody would go to the media and say "I have bad breath and we have no cure". So we have no rapresentants in the istitutions. We are stakeholder without voice.

I do think many of us, including myself at times, fall into the either/or trap of thinking that breath odor can only be of a single origin in a particular person’s case. There’s nothing that says a person cannot at various times suffer intra-oral or extra-oral, or even some of both simultaneously, and then there’s the often overlooked fact that in most cases breath odor fluctuates significantly throughout the day.

The purpose of microbiology analysis is to customize the antibiotic rinse to target the implicated strains of bacteria.
True, if the oral ecology is favorable to pathenogenic bacteria, likely they’ll eventually return. Thus the purpose of following the antibiotic and chlorhexadine rinse regimens with oral/dental probiotics. Yes, if the probiotics do the job they still may need to be continued indefinitely. A significant cost there, for sure.

Your thoughts?

If ecology fails, the solution is not antibiotic.
For example, people with orthodontic devices often have heavy breath.
If at that time they had a microbiotic test of saliva, they would find many bacteria that smell.

A few days after the removal of the dental bracket, the heavy breath disappears. What has changed? Not the bacteria, but ecology.

It's the same for us, I suppose.

First of all we should have a sure diagnosis of halitosis.

If we find out that the halitosis is type 1, then we can make some hypotheses:

1) Is the culprit the anatomy of the language?
2) Are my teeth too close to each other?
3) Is my mouth dry?
And so on.

If we find out that the halitosis is not intraoral, then we can start looking out of the mouth.
For example, I have a bit of bullous concha. It is a very common anatomical condition (one third of people has). I don't want surgery for that. But if I were sure that my bad breath is like 2, then I would immediately go to a otorhinolariology by praying to do surgery.

In conclusion, my friend, we don't need a cure. We don't need to try together with medicines. First of all we need a diagnosis, or at least the very clear clue to where to look for.
The first step should be to establish, for sure, if our bad breathing is intraoral, extraoral or both
It would take a few more money, a few minutes. Unfortunately we have no one who wants to hear.
We are alone.
But I'm an optimistic boy. As I wrote in another topic, in 2022 I am starting the search for a diagnosis in Italian clinical universities. I will visit all the professors that I know of course they are doing research on bad breath asking for help.

@ telpar, thanks for your response.
I’ll respond to your response, and apologies in advance if I ramble a bit.

Doubtless the cysteine challenge test is valuable in a research environment, but from what little I can discern through Google, it may require very specific equipment and training, and isn’t technologically ready to install in a typical dental practice. It’s deployment is apparently limited to academic and/or corporate research facilities.

The simple tests I’ve used do require an honest evaluation by a trusted second party. For example an acquaintance of mine complained of strong halitosis. Luckily for her she gets assessment from her daughter. At my suggestion she used chlorhexadine 0.2% and found that a 2 minute gargle with 10ml cx reduced her breath odor to zero (on a scale of 0-10) immediately after the rinse and 6/10 nine hours later.
Ok, I’m not a professor, nor have any formal training in biological science or health sciences, but to me this seems to me to yield a useable diagnosis of type 1 intra-oral.

Similar tests could be deployed using diluted hydrogen peroxide or diluted unscented household bleach.

It’s clear me that antibiotics haven’t worked in the past, and they were taken internally in pill or capsule form. The problem appeared to be the lack of saliva uptake of the antibiotic. Also internal use presents the danger of system-wide antibiotic resistance.

As far’s I know the jury is still out on the efficacy of antibiotic (not antibacterial) oral rinses. Efficacy in the short term is likely high in most cases, but over time it hasn’t been much or at all studied. The subject population is small at this time.

Oral microbiology, oral bacterial pathology, and especially oral ecology, are still still mysterious to most dental practitioners, but I think Jim Hyland in Toronto might be on the right track, though I doubt his regimen is the last word on it. Theres never a last word, in my opinion. Intra-oral halitosis and a long term cure will probably be “solved” in time for our grandchildren to enjoy.

I do favor the antibiotic approach for intra-oral over laser tongue debridement, aka laser tongue rejuvenation. LTD is hella expensive, and I see it as having very limited effectiveness, because it cannot, I think, access the very back of the tongue, nor the throat and tonsil area. I can’t see it having much or any effect on oral ecology, so besides being hellishly expensive, it’d probably need to be redone periodically, maybe annually.

Additional to all of the above, I think most talk of “cures” for just about anything are mostly or wholly illusory, pink and purple unicorns. I see health issues and life in general as more about management than cures. I don’t really seek a cure for my halitosis, I’m looking for practical, effective ways to manage the problem.

[telpar]

@stevian

It's a pleasure for me to talk with you

Doubtless the cysteine challenge test is valuable in a research environment, but from what little I can discern through Google, it may require very specific equipment and training, and isn’t technologically ready to install in a typical dental practice. It’s deployment is apparently limited to academic and/or corporate research facilities .

You're right.
For the same reason we have no gas detector such as OralChroma in dental practise. They're very expensive and require periodical manutention.
From the other side, we have many ambulatory of oral medicine in university clinic. In my opinion they should have a gascromatograph and cysteine challenge test should be inserted among the available exams.
In Italy I know at least of two universites who have it. It's yet too bit.

The simple tests I’ve used do require an honest evaluation by a trusted second party. For example an acquaintance of mine complained of strong halitosis. Luckily for her she gets assessment from her daughter. At my suggestion she used chlorhexadine 0.2% and found that a 2 minute gargle with 10ml cx reduced her breath odor to zero (on a scale of 0-10) immediately after the rinse and 6/10 nine hours later.
Ok, I’m not a professor, nor have any formal training in biological science or health sciences, but to me this seems to me to yield a useable diagnosis of type 1 intra-oral.

In my opinion, if clorexidine works for your acquiatance, then this is a clear case of halitosis intraoral. Maybe some undiagnosed issue in his mouth or a particular anatomy of the tongue.

Similar tests could be deployed using diluted hydrogen peroxide or diluted unscented household bleach.

No, please. Those chemical are dangerous and toxic.
We are people who suffer of bad breath. Not alchemists.

It’s clear me that antibiotics haven’t worked in the past, and they were taken internally in pill or capsule form. The problem appeared to be the lack of saliva uptake of the antibiotic. Also internal use presents the danger of system-wide antibiotic resistance.

We have not a disease. Those bacteria are not pathogenic. So in my opinione we don't need antibiotics.
We can't change our oral microbiote with antibiotics. If ecology doesn't change, profile bacteria is restored few days after antibiotical are dismissed.

Oral microbiology, oral bacterial pathology, and especially oral ecology, are still still mysterious to most dental practitioners, but I think Jim Hyland in Toronto might be on the right track, though I doubt his regimen is the last word on it. Theres never a last word, in my opinion. Intra-oral halitosis and a long term cure will probably be “solved” in time for our grandchildren to enjoy.

First of all, we should determine whether the tongue serves as a bacterial reservoir or is the origin for oral bacteria.
If tongue serves as a bacterial reservoir, we have to locate the origin otherwise the tongue will always be colonized by bacteria.

I don’t really seek a cure for my halitosis, I’m looking for practical, effective ways to manage the problem.

It's the same for me.

Please keep us updated on the outcome of your visit to Toronto.
I wish you the best.