Does it not all originate with the tongue?

[poco333]

I am new to this forum, not new to the struggle. I was 14 when I started with halitosis, am now 34. Never been able to have a relationship. BB has been the bane of my life. There, now my sob story is out of the way.
I have always known that my BB has been a problem with my tongue. Am I wrong to assume that this is the case with most everyone who suffers from BB? Even tonsil stones originate from the tongue, in my opinion. The idea that BB comes from the gut or an infection in the lungs or sinuses is a very difficult pill for me to swallow. I understand that there could be very very very rare exeptions. However, I think almost all chronic halitosis, the kind that cannot be "cured" by the "specialists," originates at the tongue--an imbalance in the flora of the tissue of the tongue occurs and it just gets worse and worse and worse, even spreading to other parts of the body.
I wish people could post pictures of their tongue on here. I think it would be very revealing and very helpful as a community effort. A healthy tongue, in my opinion, is dark pink and smooth all the way back, like a baby's tongue. I have known people with mild (but constant) halitosis that have been more or less cured from a two week course of the specialist products, like Katz's. But these were people that had healthy tongues to start, maybe just a tiny bit of growth on the back of the tongue. I would have given anything when I was 14 or 15 to have been in that category. I used to buy that stuff by the box load, and then hide it so nobody could see it.
When I was 12 or 13 I started to get bald spots (like little ulcers) on my tongue, the start of geographic tongue. I think that was the very first sign that things were starting to go wrong. Over the years things got worse and worse and I tried every product out there. Nothing helped. My tongue eventually got to the "hairy tongue" state which was about as bad as it gets. I have always been quite certain that the cause has been the wrong kind of bacteria thriving on my tongue, in the tissue, in a way that my body could not get rid of it. This somehow prevents the papillae from shedding and just creates a forest for foul smelling bacteria to thrive.
I have often thought that there must be some underlying condition with people like me that allows the tongue to be destroyed like that. Something like a weak immune system, or a weak liver, or what not. However, it does no good to go down those rabbit holes. Time and time again I've realized I have to fight the problem with my tongue at the source--my tongue.
I could write and talk for weeks on this subject, and I hope to contribute as much as I can on this forum. However, I don't want to make this post too terrible long. Since nobody could ever help me (especially doctors), I have been my own guinea pig for the last 20 years. I am going to list the things I have tried that did no good (as close to in order as I can), in hopes that nobody will waste their time or health with them:
-OTC mouthwashes--only dry out mouth
-Every one of the "Cure" products, like Katz's--dry out mouth
-Tongue Scrapers--only clean the very surface of tongue
-Rubbing Alcohol--Dry out mouth, kill everything
-Hydrogen Peroxide--Dry out mouth, kill everything
-Surgery--On deviated septum to stop Post Nasal Drip (which I didn't have its just the condition of the tongue that tricks people into thinking they do have PND), also when I learned to really not trust doctors; I think some PND can be aggravated by the "infection" on the tongue, but its an effect, not a cause; You also hear of people having their tonsils removed to fix BB to no avail
-Diet--Some extreme diets, like no carb diets, seem to help because they force the natural flora in the body to kind of reset, but I found the effects to always be very minimal temporary and got tired of feeling sick from extreme diets
-All natural (doing nothing with the tongue)--trying to pretend the problem away was foolish
-Heavy alcohol drinking--killed some bacteria but bad for many reasons and made problem worse
-Antibiotics--most scripted antibiotics help because they kill off the bacteria in the mouth, but just temporarily. And they are terrible in the sense that they kill off all the bacteria, good and bad, sometimes leaving the bad to gain more of an upper hand
-Acids, like salicylic acid--They are actually decent at killing micro stuff but only for a very short period before making things worse, they also destroy teeth
-Bleach--Something I dearly regret trying. Diluted its good at killing stuff but it doesn't heal tissue it destroys it. It made my problem worse and don't ever try it!!!
-TCA Peel (trichloroacetic acid)--much different from salicylic acid type stuff, TCA peel is a chemical burn (used in dermatology) that kills the outer layers of tissue and just peels off a day or two later; I applied this to my tongue and a couple days later peeled off a dead white layer of tissue to reveal a healthy looking baby smooth tongue (for the first time in 15 years). Unfortunately, my unhealthy tongue grew back within a few days and I was crushed; later on I tried this method once a week for a couple months and it did no good, just caused pain, my unhealthy tongue always returned. Again I am writing these things so that nobody else will risk their health trying something that WONT WORK!

Recently I have found a few things that are as close to a cure as can be for me, but it will take more posts to describe responsibly. And before I spill my guts too much I guess I would appreciate some feedback from this community on my assumption that most chronic halitosis sufferers are really victims of an unhealthy tongue. Fix the tongue, fix the halitosis. Please let me know what you think!

[Dead]

I agree with you that the smell originates from the tongue. What are the things that have almost cured you?

[KL123]

I am new to this forum, not new to the struggle. I was 14 when I started with halitosis, am now 34. Never been able to have a relationship. BB has been the bane of my life. There, now my sob story is out of the way.
I have always known that my BB has been a problem with my tongue. Am I wrong to assume that this is the case with most everyone who suffers from BB? Even tonsil stones originate from the tongue, in my opinion. The idea that BB comes from the gut or an infection in the lungs or sinuses is a very difficult pill for me to swallow. I understand that there could be very very very rare exeptions. However, I think almost all chronic halitosis, the kind that cannot be "cured" by the "specialists," originates at the tongue--an imbalance in the flora of the tissue of the tongue occurs and it just gets worse and worse and worse, even spreading to other parts of the body.
I wish people could post pictures of their tongue on here. I think it would be very revealing and very helpful as a community effort. A healthy tongue, in my opinion, is dark pink and smooth all the way back, like a baby's tongue. I have known people with mild (but constant) halitosis that have been more or less cured from a two week course of the specialist products, like Katz's. But these were people that had healthy tongues to start, maybe just a tiny bit of growth on the back of the tongue. I would have given anything when I was 14 or 15 to have been in that category. I used to buy that stuff by the box load, and then hide it so nobody could see it.
When I was 12 or 13 I started to get bald spots (like little ulcers) on my tongue, the start of geographic tongue. I think that was the very first sign that things were starting to go wrong. Over the years things got worse and worse and I tried every product out there. Nothing helped. My tongue eventually got to the "hairy tongue" state which was about as bad as it gets. I have always been quite certain that the cause has been the wrong kind of bacteria thriving on my tongue, in the tissue, in a way that my body could not get rid of it. This somehow prevents the papillae from shedding and just creates a forest for foul smelling bacteria to thrive.
I have often thought that there must be some underlying condition with people like me that allows the tongue to be destroyed like that. Something like a weak immune system, or a weak liver, or what not. However, it does no good to go down those rabbit holes. Time and time again I've realized I have to fight the problem with my tongue at the source--my tongue.
I could write and talk for weeks on this subject, and I hope to contribute as much as I can on this forum. However, I don't want to make this post too terrible long. Since nobody could ever help me (especially doctors), I have been my own guinea pig for the last 20 years. I am going to list the things I have tried that did no good (as close to in order as I can), in hopes that nobody will waste their time or health with them:
-OTC mouthwashes--only dry out mouth
-Every one of the "Cure" products, like Katz's--dry out mouth
-Tongue Scrapers--only clean the very surface of tongue
-Rubbing Alcohol--Dry out mouth, kill everything
-Hydrogen Peroxide--Dry out mouth, kill everything
-Surgery--On deviated septum to stop Post Nasal Drip (which I didn't have its just the condition of the tongue that tricks people into thinking they do have PND), also when I learned to really not trust doctors; I think some PND can be aggravated by the "infection" on the tongue, but its an effect, not a cause; You also hear of people having their tonsils removed to fix BB to no avail
-Diet--Some extreme diets, like no carb diets, seem to help because they force the natural flora in the body to kind of reset, but I found the effects to always be very minimal temporary and got tired of feeling sick from extreme diets
-All natural (doing nothing with the tongue)--trying to pretend the problem away was foolish
-Heavy alcohol drinking--killed some bacteria but bad for many reasons and made problem worse
-Antibiotics--most scripted antibiotics help because they kill off the bacteria in the mouth, but just temporarily. And they are terrible in the sense that they kill off all the bacteria, good and bad, sometimes leaving the bad to gain more of an upper hand
-Acids, like salicylic acid--They are actually decent at killing micro stuff but only for a very short period before making things worse, they also destroy teeth
-Bleach--Something I dearly regret trying. Diluted its good at killing stuff but it doesn't heal tissue it destroys it. It made my problem worse and don't ever try it!!!
-TCA Peel (trichloroacetic acid)--much different from salicylic acid type stuff, TCA peel is a chemical burn (used in dermatology) that kills the outer layers of tissue and just peels off a day or two later; I applied this to my tongue and a couple days later peeled off a dead white layer of tissue to reveal a healthy looking baby smooth tongue (for the first time in 15 years). Unfortunately, my unhealthy tongue grew back within a few days and I was crushed; later on I tried this method once a week for a couple months and it did no good, just caused pain, my unhealthy tongue always returned. Again I am writing these things so that nobody else will risk their health trying something that WONT WORK!

Recently I have found a few things that are as close to a cure as can be for me, but it will take more posts to describe responsibly. And before I spill my guts too much I guess I would appreciate some feedback from this community on my assumption that most chronic halitosis sufferers are really victims of an unhealthy tongue. Fix the tongue, fix the halitosis. Please let me know what you think!

There are perhaps multiple root causes of different types of chronic halitosis.

Depending on which kind you have, perhaps you wanna run a test.

Thoroughly Scrape your tongue and brush your teeth. Rinse thoroughly with water and take a saliva sample from your dorsum (gently scratching the surface of your dorsum, let it dry and smell it). And it will probably have minimum to no smell. This is will certify the minimum amount tongue role in the breath odor.

Now take a sample of your breath through a Helimter, and see the amount of odor and contents coming out from your lungs?

Perhaps repeat this test a few times in different days and at different times to collect some data and reach a better result?

In my opinion, the accumulation of odorous bacteria and it's explosive growth on the tongue is only the side effect.

The obnoxious odorous gas compounds that are picked by our blood from the gut and then are left untreated in our blood (for whatever genetic disorder we have) are dumped into our lungs. And then we we breath out, some of these odorous compounds are left on the dorsum. And from there it grows explosively.
So when we talk, the odorous air from the lungs, combined with the sh!t that accumulates on our tongues, creates this miserable hell for us.

[poco333]

I agree with you that the smell originates from the tongue. What are the things that have almost cured you?

Here goes. The main point of contention, in my opinion, is the back of the tongue. Almost further back than can be seen, but before the bumps that all people should have. I usually stick my tongue out in the mirror and then use a tongue scraper or spoon or something to kind of hold it down and pull it out further. Ever since I have been aware of my halitosis I have noticed that my tongue didn't look right, not dark pink and smooth like that of my friends. When I was in high school I know it was white in color, and as years passed the papillae seemed to get longer and longer, looking like a hairy tongue.
In those early days I would scrape and scrape with a tongue scraper, which would clear some mucous or what not, but the tongue still looked hairy underneath. And this was just like the middle of the tongue, I hadn't even learned to look way back yet. Anyways I knew that physically scraping the tongue wasn't getting me anywhere and tried to focus on different "products" hoping someday the problem would be solved. No good. When I was in college I remember deciding to try "shaving" my tongue using the same type of razor I shaved with in the morning. I know this sounds crazy please don't be too judgmental. It was one of those plastic disposable ones with three blades. I would stick out my tongue and hold it down with something and try to "shave" it. It didn't seem to work at all and I think my tongue was even bleeding a little (not bad). I was disappointed and gave up on that approach.

Years later I switched my razor I used to shave in the morning to the super cheap disposable single blade "bic" brand at Walmart (I think theyre orange in color). I noticed that the single blade worked so much better on my facial hair as I have a fairly thick beard and the fancy triple blade razors always just plugged up right away. Anyways I noticed that the single blade worked much better because the shavings would flow through it and not get plugged. At some point I got crazy again and decided to try this on my tongue. It actually worked! It was a thousand times more effective than a tongue scraper. I hesitate to tell people this because it sounds dangerous, but Ive never gotten hurt. Once in a while if I get too carried away my tongue will bleed a tiny bit, at which point I know I did too much. Never scrape so hard that the tongue bleeds.

Doing this once a day or once every other day took my tongue from like a level 10 bad bad hairy nasty to more like a level 3 or 4 (0 being ideally healthy and smooth). It didn't cure me but it helped tremendously. I had to make a point to try to "shave" as far back as I could but always being careful not to actually make the tongue bleed ( I repeat I know this sounds stupid and dangerous but I have never "cut" my tongue doing this, just maybe dug a little deep once in a while, but nothing bad; just be careful).
The best analogy I can make is that using a tongue scraper is like pulling a rake across the top of a forest--you might clear off a few leaves and debris here and there, but the forest definitely still remains. The single blade bic, on the other hand, is like cutting straight through the forest, leaving only stumps and undergrowth. Way way way more effective than a tongue scraper.
This did not cure my halitosis but it at least gave me a fighting chance. Clearing 80% of the "forest" off of my tongue improved things very much. Much of my "geographic tongue" started to go away (much fewer ulcers on my tongue). Anyways I tried using many of the store bought halitosis products in conjunction with "shaving" my tongue in hopes that things would improve more yet. They never did. They underlying problem always remained, the tissue of my tongue is permanently infected and overrun bad bacteria or whatever it is. Over the years I have learned to smell my own breath and I know that bad taste in my mouth. Clearing out the forest helped but the underlying "infection" was still there and the forest would always grow back if I didn't stay on top of it.

To sum things up, I now had a way to physically attack my halitosis, by shaving and debriding the tongue, but this was probably only 20% of the solution. It gave me a way to keep the bacteria (or whatever it is) in check to a degree, but they were still in charge and I needed a way to attack them at their level. In all honesty I had pretty much given up hope that I would ever find a way to do that. After all, there are millions of people around the world with this problem and nobody seems to have found a solution... ever. Or if they have they're sure not telling anybody.

A few months ago (like early September), I stumbled into something that turned my world upside down-- Copper. That's right, copper, not some fancy patented chemical made in a lab. Just copper, one of those minerals that our bodies daily require. I'm not going to go into how I stumbled upon this, just that I did.
There are different kinds of copper supplements available. Most common would be chelated copper, like in a pill form at a vitamin store. Copper deficiency in itself seems to be quite rare in people, and that is not actually what I am pointing to. Rather, copper has its own antimicrobial propterties, and I am just talking about treating my tongue, topically, with copper, and doing my best not to ingest it. It may be that I have a copper deficiency, but I am not even interested in that right now. I just know that it works topically. That being said, copper is very dangerous, I think even lethal, if too much is absorbed into the body. So I caution anybody reading this to take extreme extreme care and do your own research!!
According to WebMD, the upper daily limit for copper in an adult is 10mg per day. That means that is the maximum daily intake before damage starts to occur. The type of copper that I use topically on my tongue is copper sulfate. It comes in tiny blue crystals and is widely available. Copper sulfate is typically 25% copper. So, I bought a jewelry scale off of amazon so that I could measure how much of the copper sulfate would be safe to dab on my tongue. What I usually do is lick the tip of my finger and touch it to the copper sulfate, so that a few of the crystals stick to the end of my finger. Then, I place them towards the back of my tongue and try to sort of rub them in. They dissolve easily and I try to spit most of it out. I did measure, though, to make sure I wasn't dabbing more than 20mg on my finger (as 25% of that would be 5mg). That way, if I did ingest all of it, it should be within a safe level, as 10mg is the upper limit, but I still try to spit some out.
The first day I tried this copper sulfate it turned my world upside down (or maybe right side up) because I knew immediately that it worked. The bad taste in my mouth was immediately gone and my saliva almost tasted sweet. Also, my tongue just felt right, almost moisturized. This did not just last for a short while, but probably for at least a day. I was pretty cautious for the first few months and just did this once or twice a week, to see if that was enough. It may have been, but now I am more comfortable with it (ie I feel like I have done my research and it should be safe) and I do this once a day (still "shaving" my tongue once in a while, especially the back of my tongue where there are remnants of the forest).
I can now go days without any treatment if needed and not notice my condition returning, though I'm sure it would to some degree. My tongue is now that pretty pink color and smooth. There are still some remnants of forest towards the back, but getting better all the time. I don't know if this will cure me to the point where I no longer need to do it, but I have a huch it will. Either way, I am so happy to have a solution to be able to live and interact like a normal person, and not have that terrible feeling all the time.
I wish I had pictures of my tongue from a few years ago. The before and after would be quite remarkable. Ironically I was always afraid to take pictures in case somebody might see them. The neat thing about copper is that it is a natural element that our bodies need, not some scary man made chemical. And the bad bugs that seem to cause halitosis cant stand up to it.
Again I ask anybody reading this to Please Be Safe!! and Please Do Your Own Research!!

[mauricio]

I can't believe there's still people talking about tongues in this forum.

[Jimi Stein]

I agree with you that the smell originates from the tongue. What are the things that have almost cured you?

Here goes. The main point of contention, in my opinion, is the back of the tongue. Almost further back than can be seen, but before the bumps that all people should have. I usually stick my tongue out in the mirror and then use a tongue scraper or spoon or something to kind of hold it down and pull it out further. Ever since I have been aware of my halitosis I have noticed that my tongue didn't look right, not dark pink and smooth like that of my friends. When I was in high school I know it was white in color, and as years passed the papillae seemed to get longer and longer, looking like a hairy tongue.
In those early days I would scrape and scrape with a tongue scraper, which would clear some mucous or what not, but the tongue still looked hairy underneath. And this was just like the middle of the tongue, I hadn't even learned to look way back yet. Anyways I knew that physically scraping the tongue wasn't getting me anywhere and tried to focus on different "products" hoping someday the problem would be solved. No good. When I was in college I remember deciding to try "shaving" my tongue using the same type of razor I shaved with in the morning. I know this sounds crazy please don't be too judgmental. It was one of those plastic disposable ones with three blades. I would stick out my tongue and hold it down with something and try to "shave" it. It didn't seem to work at all and I think my tongue was even bleeding a little (not bad). I was disappointed and gave up on that approach.

Years later I switched my razor I used to shave in the morning to the super cheap disposable single blade "bic" brand at Walmart (I think theyre orange in color). I noticed that the single blade worked so much better on my facial hair as I have a fairly thick beard and the fancy triple blade razors always just plugged up right away. Anyways I noticed that the single blade worked much better because the shavings would flow through it and not get plugged. At some point I got crazy again and decided to try this on my tongue. It actually worked! It was a thousand times more effective than a tongue scraper. I hesitate to tell people this because it sounds dangerous, but Ive never gotten hurt. Once in a while if I get too carried away my tongue will bleed a tiny bit, at which point I know I did too much. Never scrape so hard that the tongue bleeds.

Doing this once a day or once every other day took my tongue from like a level 10 bad bad hairy nasty to more like a level 3 or 4 (0 being ideally healthy and smooth). It didn't cure me but it helped tremendously. I had to make a point to try to "shave" as far back as I could but always being careful not to actually make the tongue bleed ( I repeat I know this sounds stupid and dangerous but I have never "cut" my tongue doing this, just maybe dug a little deep once in a while, but nothing bad; just be careful).
The best analogy I can make is that using a tongue scraper is like pulling a rake across the top of a forest--you might clear off a few leaves and debris here and there, but the forest definitely still remains. The single blade bic, on the other hand, is like cutting straight through the forest, leaving only stumps and undergrowth. Way way way more effective than a tongue scraper.
This did not cure my halitosis but it at least gave me a fighting chance. Clearing 80% of the "forest" off of my tongue improved things very much. Much of my "geographic tongue" started to go away (much fewer ulcers on my tongue). Anyways I tried using many of the store bought halitosis products in conjunction with "shaving" my tongue in hopes that things would improve more yet. They never did. They underlying problem always remained, the tissue of my tongue is permanently infected and overrun bad bacteria or whatever it is. Over the years I have learned to smell my own breath and I know that bad taste in my mouth. Clearing out the forest helped but the underlying "infection" was still there and the forest would always grow back if I didn't stay on top of it.

To sum things up, I now had a way to physically attack my halitosis, by shaving and debriding the tongue, but this was probably only 20% of the solution. It gave me a way to keep the bacteria (or whatever it is) in check to a degree, but they were still in charge and I needed a way to attack them at their level. In all honesty I had pretty much given up hope that I would ever find a way to do that. After all, there are millions of people around the world with this problem and nobody seems to have found a solution... ever. Or if they have they're sure not telling anybody.

A few months ago (like early September), I stumbled into something that turned my world upside down-- Copper. That's right, copper, not some fancy patented chemical made in a lab. Just copper, one of those minerals that our bodies daily require. I'm not going to go into how I stumbled upon this, just that I did.
There are different kinds of copper supplements available. Most common would be chelated copper, like in a pill form at a vitamin store. Copper deficiency in itself seems to be quite rare in people, and that is not actually what I am pointing to. Rather, copper has its own antimicrobial propterties, and I am just talking about treating my tongue, topically, with copper, and doing my best not to ingest it. It may be that I have a copper deficiency, but I am not even interested in that right now. I just know that it works topically. That being said, copper is very dangerous, I think even lethal, if too much is absorbed into the body. So I caution anybody reading this to take extreme extreme care and do your own research!!
According to WebMD, the upper daily limit for copper in an adult is 10mg per day. That means that is the maximum daily intake before damage starts to occur. The type of copper that I use topically on my tongue is copper sulfate. It comes in tiny blue crystals and is widely available. Copper sulfate is typically 25% copper. So, I bought a jewelry scale off of amazon so that I could measure how much of the copper sulfate would be safe to dab on my tongue. What I usually do is lick the tip of my finger and touch it to the copper sulfate, so that a few of the crystals stick to the end of my finger. Then, I place them towards the back of my tongue and try to sort of rub them in. They dissolve easily and I try to spit most of it out. I did measure, though, to make sure I wasn't dabbing more than 20mg on my finger (as 25% of that would be 5mg). That way, if I did ingest all of it, it should be within a safe level, as 10mg is the upper limit, but I still try to spit some out.
The first day I tried this copper sulfate it turned my world upside down (or maybe right side up) because I knew immediately that it worked. The bad taste in my mouth was immediately gone and my saliva almost tasted sweet. Also, my tongue just felt right, almost moisturized. This did not just last for a short while, but probably for at least a day. I was pretty cautious for the first few months and just did this once or twice a week, to see if that was enough. It may have been, but now I am more comfortable with it (ie I feel like I have done my research and it should be safe) and I do this once a day (still "shaving" my tongue once in a while, especially the back of my tongue where there are remnants of the forest).
I can now go days without any treatment if needed and not notice my condition returning, though I'm sure it would to some degree. My tongue is now that pretty pink color and smooth. There are still some remnants of forest towards the back, but getting better all the time. I don't know if this will cure me to the point where I no longer need to do it, but I have a huch it will. Either way, I am so happy to have a solution to be able to live and interact like a normal person, and not have that terrible feeling all the time.
I wish I had pictures of my tongue from a few years ago. The before and after would be quite remarkable. Ironically I was always afraid to take pictures in case somebody might see them. The neat thing about copper is that it is a natural element that our bodies need, not some scary man made chemical. And the bad bugs that seem to cause halitosis cant stand up to it.
Again I ask anybody reading this to Please Be Safe!! and Please Do Your Own Research!!

funny i used bic razor too for a while...i cant tell how much it helped but I used it for few months......have to try again

[mauricio]

funny i used bic razor too for a while...i cant tell how much it helped but I used it for few months......have to try again

c'mon Jimi, get real.

[Jimi Stein]

funny i used bic razor too for a while...i cant tell how much it helped but I used it for few months......have to try again

c'mon Jimi, get real.

he is right, he is cutting the coating off....I used metrodinazole back then also as a mouthwash.....that was like 7 years ago....no sideeffects, only bleeding rarely....this guy is legit....

[mauricio]

he is right, he is cutting the coating off....I used metrodinazole back then also as a mouthwash.....that was like 7 years ago....no sideeffects, only bleeding rarely....this guy is legit....

Wrap your tongue in cling film and make a test with someone.

[Jimi Stein]

It is not just tongue but throat too....use a dental mirror and check your throat, it has white patches most probably of this sulphur buildups, and it is impossible to reach.

[KL123]

It is not just tongue but throat too....use a dental mirror and check your throat, it has white patches most probably of this sulphur buildups, and it is impossible to reach.

That's what I have thought about.
Dental lens only goes down to a certain point. The question is, how far down in the esophagus and food/air tunnels does this shit builds up to?

[Jimi Stein]

it also contaminates the whole area, even the stomach, cause you swallow bacteria, etc all the time....

[Jimi Stein]

I am new to this forum, not new to the struggle. I was 14 when I started with halitosis, am now 34. Never been able to have a relationship. BB has been the bane of my life. There, now my sob story is out of the way.
I have always known that my BB has been a problem with my tongue. Am I wrong to assume that this is the case with most everyone who suffers from BB? Even tonsil stones originate from the tongue, in my opinion. The idea that BB comes from the gut or an infection in the lungs or sinuses is a very difficult pill for me to swallow. I understand that there could be very very very rare exeptions. However, I think almost all chronic halitosis, the kind that cannot be "cured" by the "specialists," originates at the tongue--an imbalance in the flora of the tissue of the tongue occurs and it just gets worse and worse and worse, even spreading to other parts of the body.
I wish people could post pictures of their tongue on here. I think it would be very revealing and very helpful as a community effort. A healthy tongue, in my opinion, is dark pink and smooth all the way back, like a baby's tongue. I have known people with mild (but constant) halitosis that have been more or less cured from a two week course of the specialist products, like Katz's. But these were people that had healthy tongues to start, maybe just a tiny bit of growth on the back of the tongue. I would have given anything when I was 14 or 15 to have been in that category. I used to buy that stuff by the box load, and then hide it so nobody could see it.
When I was 12 or 13 I started to get bald spots (like little ulcers) on my tongue, the start of geographic tongue. I think that was the very first sign that things were starting to go wrong. Over the years things got worse and worse and I tried every product out there. Nothing helped. My tongue eventually got to the "hairy tongue" state which was about as bad as it gets. I have always been quite certain that the cause has been the wrong kind of bacteria thriving on my tongue, in the tissue, in a way that my body could not get rid of it. This somehow prevents the papillae from shedding and just creates a forest for foul smelling bacteria to thrive.
I have often thought that there must be some underlying condition with people like me that allows the tongue to be destroyed like that. Something like a weak immune system, or a weak liver, or what not. However, it does no good to go down those rabbit holes. Time and time again I've realized I have to fight the problem with my tongue at the source--my tongue.
I could write and talk for weeks on this subject, and I hope to contribute as much as I can on this forum. However, I don't want to make this post too terrible long. Since nobody could ever help me (especially doctors), I have been my own guinea pig for the last 20 years. I am going to list the things I have tried that did no good (as close to in order as I can), in hopes that nobody will waste their time or health with them:
-OTC mouthwashes--only dry out mouth
-Every one of the "Cure" products, like Katz's--dry out mouth
-Tongue Scrapers--only clean the very surface of tongue
-Rubbing Alcohol--Dry out mouth, kill everything
-Hydrogen Peroxide--Dry out mouth, kill everything
-Surgery--On deviated septum to stop Post Nasal Drip (which I didn't have its just the condition of the tongue that tricks people into thinking they do have PND), also when I learned to really not trust doctors; I think some PND can be aggravated by the "infection" on the tongue, but its an effect, not a cause; You also hear of people having their tonsils removed to fix BB to no avail
-Diet--Some extreme diets, like no carb diets, seem to help because they force the natural flora in the body to kind of reset, but I found the effects to always be very minimal temporary and got tired of feeling sick from extreme diets
-All natural (doing nothing with the tongue)--trying to pretend the problem away was foolish
-Heavy alcohol drinking--killed some bacteria but bad for many reasons and made problem worse
-Antibiotics--most scripted antibiotics help because they kill off the bacteria in the mouth, but just temporarily. And they are terrible in the sense that they kill off all the bacteria, good and bad, sometimes leaving the bad to gain more of an upper hand
-Acids, like salicylic acid--They are actually decent at killing micro stuff but only for a very short period before making things worse, they also destroy teeth
-Bleach--Something I dearly regret trying. Diluted its good at killing stuff but it doesn't heal tissue it destroys it. It made my problem worse and don't ever try it!!!
-TCA Peel (trichloroacetic acid)--much different from salicylic acid type stuff, TCA peel is a chemical burn (used in dermatology) that kills the outer layers of tissue and just peels off a day or two later; I applied this to my tongue and a couple days later peeled off a dead white layer of tissue to reveal a healthy looking baby smooth tongue (for the first time in 15 years). Unfortunately, my unhealthy tongue grew back within a few days and I was crushed; later on I tried this method once a week for a couple months and it did no good, just caused pain, my unhealthy tongue always returned. Again I am writing these things so that nobody else will risk their health trying something that WONT WORK!

Recently I have found a few things that are as close to a cure as can be for me, but it will take more posts to describe responsibly. And before I spill my guts too much I guess I would appreciate some feedback from this community on my assumption that most chronic halitosis sufferers are really victims of an unhealthy tongue. Fix the tongue, fix the halitosis. Please let me know what you think!

great post, but I disagree in bleach. Get a pure one and use only 2 drops on 1 glass of water, gargle....bleach is in pools, they use it in dentistry....from my opinion it has no sideeffects in small doses....much better than halitomafia scam mouthwash that will really ***k you up totally

[poco333]

It is not just tongue but throat too....use a dental mirror and check your throat, it has white patches most probably of this sulphur buildups, and it is impossible to reach.

I used to have tonsil stones quite bad. I had been coughing them up for quite a few years, but definitely after by bb started. I was always a little paranoid about them, as it was something I couldn't really quantify. There were times when I could sort of scrape the side of my throat with the back of my tongue and dislodge one or two here and there. I had tried using a dental mirror in the past with no luck. I finally figured out that I could use a mini mag light, stick my tongue out, and set the light on the back of my tongue and push down to reveal a very well illuminated throat and tonsils. I could see the actual tonsil stones on the sides of my throat. I then realized I could use a dental pick or even my finger to clear them out, since I could see exactly where to pick at.
Since I have started dabbing Cu sulfate on the back of my tongue, no more tonsil stones. I've not coughed one up and I have checked multiple times and there are none to be seen back there. The Cu sulfate dissolves quickly on the tongue and gets good coverage in my throat and tonsils. The reason I don't dissolve it in water and use it as a mouthwash is that my teeth and gums and upper and lower mouth do not need it. Mostly just the back of the tongue, which makes good contact with the throat. Again I will say that I have tried everything under the sun and I finally found something that honestly and truly works--copper.
By "white patches" I would definitely say tonsil stones qualify. Squish one in your fingers and oh the terrible smell. But if we are talking about white patches of tissue, then I would say that that is more like scar tissue. I really don't think smooth surfaced tissue can be infected by these bad bacteria (or whatever they are) that cause halitosis. I think they can only live on the surface of tissue in a way where they are protected. That's why they thrive on an unhealthy, hairy like tongue. You never hear anybody complaining about they bottom of there tongue, where it is super smooth. I realize tonsils are smooth, but inside they are pretty well closed off from the outside world, and an anaerobic environment where the bad bugs can thrive. I still think tonsil stones originate from the bad bugs on the back of the tongue.

[poco333]

it also contaminates the whole area, even the stomach, cause you swallow bacteria, etc all the time....

I realize this is a concern people have. I used to feel the same way, until I figured this copper deal out and it forced me to grapple with the fact that the whole problem was really just my tongue.
The bad bugs that thrive on an unhealthy tongue can also thrive in the tonsils, I'll agree with that. I'll also agree that they can invade the sinuses, to a certain degree, but not as bad as tonsils. But, to worry that they are infecting the rest of the body, ie stomach, intestines, lungs, etc... is something that I have come to completely disagree with. The environment in those places is so extremely different than it is in the mouth.