Dr. Jorgen Slots, USC

[Pleasehelp]

@telpar

Smartmouth DID work, at first. Then it made things worse. The bacteria is now stronger than ever, unfortunately. Another product I think may have led to this was Crest (the type with triclosan.) Triclosan is an anti microbial and I think after several years of using it the effects slowly wore off. I currently do not have ANYTHING that works, and an grateful mask mandates are still in place where I work, although even that has a limited effect.

[telpar]

Friend, SmartMouth is not antimicrobical. It has a formula who prevents and masks gases. Doesn't kill bacteria.
So it can't get worse your bad breath.

Our condition make us very stressed and anxious. So sometimes we make some congepture on products who have worsen our bb, but we wrong.
You can't evaluate yourself if your bb is improved or worsen.

As a general rule, we don't need antibiotics. We don't need cloreixidine. We don't need to try strange diet. We don't need to take products without medical advice.

We have to eat good, sleep good, love good, stay optimistic.
We first need to find a diagnosis, not to make dangerous attempts.
First the diagnosis, next the cure.

[Jaim618]

Hi everyone,

So I was reading yet ANOTHER article online, hoping to glean some info I hadn't yet found, when. I came across an article published by a dental office who had asked Dr. Slots, who is the professor of periodontology and microbiology at USC, how to treat halitosis, and he said use Hibiclens, which is .40% chlorhexidine. Well I was apprehensive because like a lot of you, I did try. 20% chlorhexidine and was successful until the bacteria became resistant to it. So I emailed him and asked him and he did recommend the Hibiclens, even though I told him I had already tried a weaker version of it. He said to put a few drops on the very back of my tongue and scrub. He also said the bacteria is from my stomach. So I just picked it up from Target but I am so nervous to try it, because I feel like every time I try something it makes it worse. Currently I have room filling fecal breath that is also nasal as well as oral. Has anyone tried this Hibiclens before?

When I googled Hibiclens hand washing products come up. Is this correct? Is this a hand washing solution that you are using in your mouth? Just want to make sure I found the correct product. Thanks!

[Pleasehelp]

Yes, that is the one . It is essentially a very strong disinfectant.

[KL123]

Friend, SmartMouth is not antimicrobical. It has a formula who prevents and masks gases. Doesn't kill bacteria.
So it can't get worse your bad breath.

Our condition make us very stressed and anxious. So sometimes we make some congepture on products who have worsen our bb, but we wrong.
You can't evaluate yourself if your bb is improved or worsen.

As a general rule, we don't need antibiotics. We don't need cloreixidine. We don't need to try strange diet. We don't need to take products without medical advice.

We have to eat good, sleep good, love good, stay optimistic.
We first need to find a diagnosis, not to make dangerous attempts.
First the diagnosis, next the cure.

Each of us has tried chlorhexidine.
None of us were cured of chlorhexidine.

Chlorhexidine is useful in case of intraoral halitosis, as an initial therapy for 1 week, on the doctor's prescription.

Bacteria cannot be killed. Smartmouth is very good for type 1 bad breath, it contains zinc chloride and sodium chlorite. The combination of these two elements inhibits sulfur compounds without killing bacteria.
So I don't think it can lead to microbiotic resistance. It's safe, I suppose.

If smartmouth is useful to you, it is a clue to intraoral bad breath.
If Smartmouth is useless, maybe it's not intraoral halitosis.

For intraoral bad breath, the best product seems to be Halitosil Zn, a recipe from Aydin Murat. Unfortunately it is not available outside of Turkey.

Friends, we don't need chlorhexidine, we don't need antibiotics.
I don't think we have "bad" bacteria. I think we have an underlying sublicnic cause that is difficult to diagnose. But it is not impossible.

I think our cases should be studied by the university's oral pathology department.
I dream of a hospital where you go and there is a team of doctors (oral medicine, Orl, gastroenterology, endocrinology) who collaborate to work out a diagnosis.

It's possible. We deserve it.

Research requires grants. And unfortunately, there is not enough potential in the market to give a better return on the investment. So big pharma etc, are not a whole lot upbeat about funding such a research.

Matter of fact, one wonders why everything came to complete halt and the entire research seems to have been shut down after Dr. Ron Wevers discovered SELENBP1 genetic mutation as cause of chronic halitosis in some cases. This was in 2017, and one wonders why no more progress on this breakthrough?

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I won't be surprised to know if some big pharma purchased the research rights and shut it down behind the closed doors so that their more profitable business of selling mouth washes and whatnot keeps generating huge revenues. These days, anything is possible.

So it looks like, it's all about the money. It doesn't matter whether we deserve or not.

So many people have tried to reach out Radboud but a complete silence. All they got in some cases was to visit Netherlands, get the initial consultation by a local dental clinic of their preference, and only if the dentist recommends and prescribes the SELENBP1 test, you can be scheduled to get test at the Radboud University research center. The cost of this test is around 700 Euros. And that's it!! Nothing else, nothing more.

However, I think you have a clear picture of where we stand with our particular category of chronic bad breath. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with a periodontal disease, tonsils, infections and whatnot. And these mouth washes and antibiotics are only a temporary relief.
If I have to take a wild guess (for our particular category of bb) then I lean towards the genetics.

Yesterday, I had this difficult conversation with one of my kids whom I have passed this sh!t on. I explained the hurdles I've been through and whatever the EFF I could've done in a failure attempt to a find a cure, before I arrived to an initial conclusion that gene therapy is perhaps our best hope.

It may not happen in my life time but lets hope our future generations find a remedy. I told him to stay abreast with any exploration on SELENBP1 related breakthrough or any other genetic therapy to cure chronic halitosis relating to genetic mutation. But for now, clearing the lungs with fresh morning air, infusing more oxygen in the blood stream, thoroughly scrapping the tongue, brushing the teeth and a drop of hibiclens on the dorsum, seems to provide the longest relief time anything else. We can repeat it twice a day if not thrice a day.

Yes, watch your diet, stay away from high Sulphur and high choline diets, perhaps stay from oily and fatty foods, eat more veggies, drink more water and stay on top of keep excellent dental hygiene is all what we can do. And after that, if someone has an issue with our breath, they can go FCUK themselves. It's their problem not ours.

[telpar]

Hello Kl123,
how many childrens do you have?
At what age did your and their bad breath appear?

Have you ever tested for parasites? This could be a diagnosis for all of you because parasites are contagious. In this case, the antibiotics only work if taken by the whole family, otherwise the parasites return.

Have you ever been seen by a gastroenterologist? Have you ever tested your feces for parasites? The test could give false negatives if done improperly.

[Stevian]

Friends, we don't need chlorhexidine, we don't need antibiotics.
I don't think we have "bad" bacteria. I think we have an underlying sublicnic cause that is difficult to diagnose. But it is not impossible.

Where do you get this “we” nonsense?
The only thing we necessarily have in common here is severe chronic halitosis. By various estimates at least 80-90 percent of cases, perhaps more, are caused by stinky VSC off-gasses of anaerobic oral bacteria, i.e. inter-oral, but even so, each and every case is unique in detail.
The underlying cause in these cases is not at all difficult to diagnose.
It’s an oral infection, and yes, in some long-standing cases these bacteria are very persistent, very resilient, very difficult to eradicate completely.
If we kill off 99% of them with an antibiotic, the hardy 1% could repopulate within weeks.
Yes, I think it’s entirely possible that some or most inter-oral cases are complicated by an as yet unknown genetic susceptibility.

[telpar]

Friends, we don't need chlorhexidine, we don't need antibiotics.
I don't think we have "bad" bacteria. I think we have an underlying sublicnic cause that is difficult to diagnose. But it is not impossible.

Where do you get this “we” nonsense?
The only thing we necessarily have in common here is severe chronic halitosis. By various estimates at least 80-90 percent of cases, perhaps more, are caused by stinky VSC off-gasses of anaerobic oral bacteria, i.e. inter-oral, but even so, each and every case is unique in detail.
The underlying cause in these cases is not at all difficult to diagnose.
It’s an oral infection, and yes, in some long-standing cases these bacteria are very persistent, very resilient, very difficult to eradicate completely.
If we kill off 99% of them with an antibiotic, the hardy 1% could repopulate within weeks.
Yes, I think it’s entirely possible that some or most inter-oral cases are complicated by an as yet unknown genetic susceptibility.

Sorry, my english is not so good.
When I write "we", I dont' mean "I and you". I generically refer to people with halitosis.

I dont' want judge your case. I don't want judge any case.

In my humble opinion, if a persona has bad breath due to overgrowth of bacteria on the dorsum of the tongue, maybe he has to improve his oral hygiene or there is something to fix in the mouth.

No need antibiotics. A mouthwash chloride zinc based, such as SmartMouth, can mask the bad odour.
Several researches states the efficiency of chloride zinc in intraoral halitosis.

If the mouthwash doesn't work, then it's not intraoral halitosi. Maybe the issue is the nose, the lungs. Or it's blood born halitosis, for a subclinic undiagnosed issue.

We have halitosis and always we think it's linked to the coated tongue. I've seen many people with coated tongue and no halitosis.

Many people in this forum have written they have proved antibiotics and chlorexidine. Unfortunately bacteria always come back.

[Stevian]

@ telpar

Quote: “In my humble opinion, if a persona has bad breath due to overgrowth of bacteria on the dorsum of the tongue, maybe he has to improve his oral hygiene or there is something to fix in the mouth.”

- Poor oral hygiene is sometimes a factor in the origin of chronic halitosis, but once established, an improvement in oral hygiene alone won’t get rid of the problem.

Quote:”No need antibiotics. A mouthwash chloride zinc based, such as SmartMouth, can mask the bad odour.
Several researches states the efficiency of chloride zinc in intraoral halitosis.”

- The best proprietary mouthwashes, such as Smartmouth, Therabreath, etc, do more than mask odor. More importantly they inhibit bacterial growth.

Quote:”We have halitosis and always we think it's linked to the coated tongue. I've seen many people with coated tongue and no halitosis.”

- Yes, if you have chronic halitosis and a coated tongue, many of those smelly bacteria are in that coating, also known as overgrowth or biofilm.
- Yes, some people have a coated tongue yet no halitosis.
- Why? There are at least hundreds, possibly thousands of species of oral bacteria. Some are smelly, some less so, some not much, some not.
- So it really depends what species of bacteria are in that coating/overgrowth/biofilm. If your tongue coating has the wrong species, you’re going to have halitosis.

Quote:”Many people in this forum have written they have proved antibiotics and chlorexidine. Unfortunately bacteria always come back.”

- We don’t know about always, all cases, but yes, many cases, maybe most cases.
- In cases persisting over years, sometimes decades, and especially after successive courses of chlorhexadine, some species of smelly bacteria develop resistance to antibacterial agents, and possibly in some cases, antibiotic resistance.
- So yes, after treatment by oral debridement, followed by antibiotic and antibacterial mouthwashes, if a strict oral hygiene regimen is bot scrupulously adhered to, likely the smelly bacteria will repopulate within weeks or months.

[telpar]

Dear Stevian,
I'm not a doctor, I'm not a scientist. I'm just a pazient who suffer halitosis. I have been searching for a cure from several years so I've read many publications.

Bacteria on the dorsum of the tongue are in many cases the origin of the bad breath. Their presence indicates that there is a bacterial reservoir somewhere. If this reservoir is in the mouth, a mouthwash containing chloride zinc is very useful. Otherwise halitosis originate outside of the mouth or is a mix of intraoral halitosis ed extraoral halitosis.

Take a look at this paper http://www.scielo.org.ar/pdf/aol/v32n2/v32n2a06.pdf

The mouthwash indicates as R2 (halitosil zn) can stop intraoral bad breath. Unfortunately it's not available outside turkey.
Maybe it would be very useful if dentist uses it for organoleptic test.

I hug you and wish you all the best.

[telpar]

R3 not R2

[Stevian]

@ telpar
It doesn’t help much to link research papers without detailed context. What exactly were you attempting to point out in that paper?

[telpar]

@ telpar
It doesn’t help much to link research papers without detailed context. What exactly were you attempting to point out in that paper?

Sorry, I thought it was useless due to the presence of a detailted abstract.

However, research states that "alcohol-free ZnCl2-containing mouthwashes are immediately effective on halitosis."

The researchers provoked enormous intraoral halitosis by administering a solution of cysteine. Commercial mouthwashes were then administered and the vsc level tested.

The mouthwash Halitosil Zn was able to reduce h2s by 93.06%.

So, if you suffer from intraoral bad breath, a mouthwash like Halitosil ZN can mask the odor. There is no need for antibiotics, no need for chlorhexidine.

If halitosil zn does not work it means that the halitosis is not intraoral, or at least not only intraoral.

Unfortunately, halitosil zn isn't available outside of turkey.

[Stevian]

@ telpar

Thanks very much for your reply.
Yes, a detailed abstract, but unless one knows what to look for it could take hours to sort out the useful information, so thanks for saving me hours of mind-bendingly boring reading.

Several proprietary mouthwashes that contain zinc chloride and other zinc and chlorine compounds weren’t among those tested, so I’m not convinced that the relative unavailability of halitosil zn is a tragedy.

Fyi, the active zinc and chlorine compounds do more than mask odors. Chewing gum and strong mint candies will do that. Mainly these active compounds combine with sulfur compounds, thus neutralizing gaseous odors. Also, while they’re not a bacteriocide, they do inhibit bacterial growth.