Molybdenum supplementation seems to be my solution

[paul80]

Short answer: high-dose molybdenum supplementation.

Disclaimer: Do not consider what I write to be any kind of medical advice. Everyone's condition can be different and what works for one person, may not for another. Do your own research and take the proper precautions when experimenting.

I've had bad breath for pretty much all of my life, but it seemed like it got slowly worse over time. I'm also blessed (or cursed) with the ability to smell my own breath, so I'm not hit with any surprises when talking with people. My theory is that my deviated septum creates some kind of turbulence in the nose, and with the air bouncing off the internal walls, I'm able to somehow smell my own breath. To describe my breath, on a bad day, my breath smells like fecal garbage, mixed with rotten cabbage, with the funky smell of a barnyard. Lovely combo. No matter how well I brush, floss, and scrape my tongue, the smell can't be effectively nullified, since it comes from the lungs. You can only temporarily get rid of the residue that habitates inside the mouth, but you still breathe out the nasty smell anyway.

Initially, I assumed I just had a very bad case of dysbiosis and gut imbalance. I didn't have the benefit of natural birth and wasn't breast-fed, which added to this assumption. But all tests and stool exams turned up negative. I took full-spectrum probiotics for many years, including a few hundred billion CFU doses daily, of lacto-bifido blends, soil/spore probiotics, and yeast probiotics (e.g. Florastor). They didn't make a dent. Then, I took a few SIBO breath tests, including the one that could detect hydrogen sulfide from trio smart labs. One of them I believe was a false positive, the rest were negative. That false positive test was done with a lactulose substrate which reacts towards the end of the test, and since I'm asian, I probably have a shorter than average small intestine, so the earlier-than-expected large intestine reaction was probably what showed up in the test results. Then, I thought, why not test my stomach acid levels with the Heidelberg test. This wireless capsule test revealed that I had low stomach acid. Gotcha, I thought. But it turns out, this probably has nothing to do with my bad breath. No amount of stomach acidifiers (betaine hcl or apple cider vinegar) did the trick, and all it did was give me ulcers. Plus, whenever I look up symptoms for low stomach acid, rarely if ever, is "bad breath" listed as one of them. So it seemed low stomach acid wasn't the cause. Digestive enzymes didn't do much of anything, either.

Then, I came across articles mentioning some researchers in Europe (Netherlands?) isolated a gene called SELENBP1 as one of the causes of extra-oral (not originating from the mouth) halitosis. Apparently, sulfur metabolism in humans creates a nasty smelling sulfur metabolite gas called methanethiol (or methyl mercaptan). In most people, this gas is transformed into hydrogen sulfide, hydrogen peroxide, and formaldehyde via methanethiol oxidase (MTO). But in some people, a faulty mutation in this gene leaves this funky smelling gas in the system, which makes its way into the bloodstream, to the lungs, and is breathed out. This condition is called methanethiol oxidase (MTO) deficiency. Unfortunately, there is no cure, just limited "management". Basically, one would have to stick to a low methionine diet, which is incredibly and hopelessly restricting. I also like to stick to keto diets and foods, which unfortunately contains generally the highest amounts of methionine (e.g. meats). So now, I have to choose between having less shitty breath or not being fat? Life is amusing sometimes. I believe the ultimate cure lies in genetic therapy and engineering, but the state of the art just isn't there yet, so "management" is the only option at the present.

So, I did one of those comprehensive 30x genetic tests and confirmed that my SELENBP1 gene is "highly pathogenic". Doing some more research, I came across some articles suggesting that molybdenum may help neutralize this smelly gas.

https://patents.google.com/patent/JP2010111591A/en

At first, I took "normal" doses (50-150 mcg daily) for just a few days, noticed that my breath didn't improve, and just gave up. Then for some reason, I decided to have another go, and this time, I stayed on it for a full week and ramped up the dosage equal to the daily upper tolerable limit rated at 2,000 mcg (or 2 mg) daily. Again, it didn't seem to have any effect. So I just moved on. Then, about a few days later after I stopped, I noticed that my fecal/cabbage breath cleared up considerably. I credited the improvement to one of those unexplainable random once-in-a-blue-moon days where my breath isn't that bad. But then, I ended up having 3-4 days of clear breath. Not that I was complaining, but as an engineer, I always like to know why something happens. My diet didn't change day to day, so either this was some kind of coincidence, or the molybdenum had something to do with it. After the bad breath returned, I decided to repeat the experiment, taking 2 mg daily for a full week. Again, there was a lag time of a few days before the breath cleared up. My guess is that the molybdenum reaches a certain saturation level in the system after some time, before it starts to work effectively. I've also noticed that my tongue appears more moist and pink ever since I started taking molybdenum. Previously, on bad days, my tongue would appear dry and white.

I've been on molybdenum for a couple of weeks and so far, haven't had a bad day yet. I've already accepted that there may not be a cure in my lifetime, but I can live with an effective management solution. Standard molybdenum blood tests only look for toxicity, not deficiency. So my plan is to take monthly blood tests and then space them out quarterly, to see if I'm ever in danger of overdosing. If I'm close to the edge, maybe I can dial it back to 1 mg daily.

This is my solution that seems to work for me. Hopefully, this will help others in a similar situation.

[StillHoping]

Hi Paul, thanks for the detailed post. Did you experience any side effects from using the molybdenum?? Also, you mentioned you did not change your diet at all. Can you please post what foods your diet consists of? Thanks

[paul80]

No side effects that I can tell, but then again, I haven't been on molybdenum for too long (About 2 weeks straight, but probably almost a month in total). Will report back after another month of continuous use, and a few months after that. I'm taking these supplements from Biotics Research, Thorne, and Douglas Laboratories - these 3 brands seem to be highly rated and I'm rotating them to see if 1 may be better than the others, but all 3 seem to be working more or less equally. But I'm planning on doing extended runs with each one at a time to know for sure.

I'm planning on monthly blood tests at first, then if the levels seem good, I'll take blood tests quarterly. Are there known or expected side effects with molybdenum, if taken under toxic levels? I've read of an edge case where someone taking 300-800 mcg daily for a couple of weeks suffered brain damage, but I'm thinking this is a freak case which might have had other variables in play. The upper tolerable limit stated by the FDA is rated at 2,000 mcg (2 mg) daily.

I normally like to stay on keto (meats, eggs, etc), but I've been in cheating mode for the last couple of months lol. Right now, the diet consists of pretty much anything I want to eat (meats, carbs, pasta, bread, rice, etc - diet is full of methionine, fodmaps, and carbs which isn't the best for us). This almost seems too good to be true (just popping a high-dose supplement and eating anything guilt-free), which is why I want to continue this for a couple of months to confirm and make sure this isn't a fluke lol. But regardless, this seems promising, as I've never had more than a day or two of "mild" bad breath before this discovery - I'm two weeks in already.

[spyr]

Thanks for that very informative and detailed post.
I see a little bit of myself in the ways you tried treating your bad breath, with your SIBO and low stomach acid theories.

I never got tested for SELENBP1 but I took a year ago normal doses of molybdenum like you, and it didn't have any effect so I gave up. I have to try with 2mg.

Did you have nasal bad breath ?
Did you have bad breath since childhood ? Did your bad breath become really bad since one specific year ?

[paul80]

Yea, I would try to get a 30x genetic scan, if you can, for confirmation. I used the one from Sequencing's website since they had a good BBB rating. It's a 3-month turnaround time.

Because of my deviated septum (my theory), I'm able to smell my breath, especially, when i turn my head to the right and exhale forcefully through the nose. The malodor comes from the lungs, so yes, the smell comes from the nose and mouth. Pretty much all my life, though it seems to have gotten worse gradually over time. Particularly, the fecal, rotten/boiled cabbage, and the barnyard smell started to crop up around 5+ years ago. Ridiculous.

Try 1 mg twice daily (total 2 mg), for 1-2 weeks continuously. Thorne has 1 mg (1,000 mcg) pills and Douglas has 0.5 mg (500 mcg) pills, this way you don't have to down a ridiculous amount of pills each time. Biotics Research has 150 mcg pills so if you went with this, you would need to down 13 pills daily. So I would try Thorne or Douglas if you want to minimize the number of pills. Again, disclaimer, this is not medical advice and shouldn't be considered so lol. Just telling you what I did and am continuing to do. According to the FDA, 2 mg daily is the upper tolerable limit so this shouldn't be a problem for most people. If you do it for a few weeks and find that it works, I would get periodic blood tests to make sure you aren't in toxicity.

[spyr]

I will consider getting a scan indeed.

Okay so you can smell your bad breath just by breathing with your nose, but did you get reactions, like really bad reactions ? Did you get the well-known "who farted" reaction while you don't even speak ?
I can't smell my nasal bb myself so I only rely on people's reaction.
In my case, my bb became nasal after I took an antiobiotic called amoxicilin (the devil). Do you think there is a link between microbiome and SELENBP1 ?
I wonder why would your mouth microbiome be afected while you are only removing gas production.

I actually ordered the 150mcg pills so I'm gonna have 13 pills daily lol

[Cres]

Are you guys taking sodium molybdate or ammonium molybdate?

[paul80]

I will consider getting a scan indeed.

Okay so you can smell your bad breath just by breathing with your nose, but did you get reactions, like really bad reactions ? Did you get the well-known "who farted" reaction while you don't even speak ?
I can't smell my nasal bb myself so I only rely on people's reaction.
In my case, my bb became nasal after I took an antiobiotic called amoxicilin (the devil). Do you think there is a link between microbiome and SELENBP1 ?
I wonder why would your mouth microbiome be afected while you are only removing gas production.

I actually ordered the 150mcg pills so I'm gonna have 13 pills daily lol

Since I know when my breath is particularly bad, I pretty much avoid all contact during those times, and I flood my mouth with breath spray and breath strips when I'm forced to have any contact lol. On really bad days, I would get those random comments from people sitting 10 feet away in another cubicle. This was pre-covid when everyone was in the office, I'm pretty much WFH 90% of the time now. An antibiotic caused the smell? Not sure what that means honestly. Not sure why my tongue would be affected, possibly the gaseous contents are settling on the surfaces inside the mouth? Or the gas is just having systemic effects? For example, I suspect my eczema on my nose/face is related to this phenomena - I break out worse on really bad days. I guess you got the Mo-Zyme Forte version, right? Break it up into 2 doses (7, then 6 later on in the day/night).

[paul80]

Are you guys taking sodium molybdate or ammonium molybdate?

Never took them.

[Cres]

Are you guys taking sodium molybdate or ammonium molybdate?

Never took them.

What kind of molybdenum supplements are they then? Cholate?

[paul80]

Are you guys taking sodium molybdate or ammonium molybdate?

Never took them.

What kind of molybdenum supplements are they then? Cholate?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DKX7XJG/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000Q7FO3K/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0797LN3DB/

[Ade]

Thanks @paul80 for sharing your experience.

I started molybdenum 3 weeks ago. I’m using a liquid form and following the suggested dosage which is 3 drops (= 75mcg). Another poster shared an article one day about molybdenum - it says that the best form of Molybdenum is sodium or ammonium Molybdate:

https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm

Looks like I need to increase my dosage. I’ll do that and report back in a few weeks.

[Cres]

"There is one documented case of molybdenum supplements causing serious harm. After taking 300-800 micrograms of molybdenum supplements each day for 18 days (for a total dose of 13.5 mg), a man developed hallucinations and seizures, eventually resulting in permanent brain damage."

I haven't found guidelines for how long one should supplement with molybdenum, at a time. One week on, one week off?

[paul80]

Thanks @paul80 for sharing your experience.

I started molybdenum 3 weeks ago. I’m using a liquid form and following the suggested dosage which is 3 drops (= 75mcg). Another poster shared an article one day about molybdenum - it says that the best form of Molybdenum is sodium or ammonium Molybdate:

https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm

Looks like I need to increase my dosage. I’ll do that and report back in a few weeks.

Thanks for the info.

[paul80]

"There is one documented case of molybdenum supplements causing serious harm. After taking 300-800 micrograms of molybdenum supplements each day for 18 days (for a total dose of 13.5 mg), a man developed hallucinations and seizures, eventually resulting in permanent brain damage."

I haven't found guidelines for how long one should supplement with molybdenum, at a time. One week on, one week off?

That's the edge case to which I was referring. Indefinite usage might be safe, as long as period blood tests reveal the concentration is under the threshold. Though I wouldn't swear on it. Might not be meant for long-term use, I don't know. Or, he could have had other negative factors that were the main contributors, who knows. Sort of like young people dying from covid, in many cases, they neglect to leave out the fact that they were obese, had diabetes, etc. At a minimum, should get period blood tests, and at the first hint of negative symptoms, should stop immediately.