Hey hal,
So sorry man, but there already is an instance where the doc said something, written in a manner which appears he is absolutely certain, but was 100% wrong. The doc told me not to use Listerine because it does not have zinc, while all along there is a zinc-containing Listerine.
This might not really be a big deal, but my problem is people here read the posts for tips and advice to help themselves. And what the doc posted was an incorrect info. Imagine my case - the doc told me no Listerine with zinc, and since I look up to him as an expert and follow his advice, I would then be ignoring all Listerine products I see. But actually in the supermarket I go to, only 1 mouthwash brand contains zinc - Listerine. So for someone who saw his advice then did not bother to check Listerine products anymore, that someone would be deprived of possibly the same relief I am getting now (temporary relief by the way).
I’m not disrespecting the doc, but a zinc-related info error made by a supposed zinc proponent does not boost credibility. This might just be a small slip-up, but now one would wonder what other small slip-ups could have already been written.
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halitosisux
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I'm not too sure on this. We have to wait and see what the doc says. If I remember correctly though, this was all discussed and only his mouthwash contained the best type of zinc against BB. Yes there is a Listerine containing zinc, but I dont think the type of zinc it contains is the most effective.
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halitosisux
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Hey hal
His statement was not about effectivity, but about availability. Which could have prevented other people from seeking out the product that could possibly help. And made me think he is not keeping up with the changes done by players in his industry, and that a little of his knowledge might be outdated.
And it's not just the zinc info, but the other statements cited by Hooch above, and then some. And I don't think the doctor has replied to some of those who scratched their head and asked about his statements. Statements like:
- saying halimeters mean nothing then saying he got a patient's score from 120 to 90 with treatment
- saying metals don't smell so don't remove amalgams then saying a boy was cured when braces were removed and a girl was cured when metal tongue piercing was removed
- saying antibiotics do not have permanent effect on microbial flora which made me wonder since intestinal flora inhabited by h-pylori can be permanently changed by antibiotics
An average individual like me might skip the posts that discuss 'pseudomembranous colitis' or 'immunoglobulins' but would be readily eager to read those with practical information in layman's terms, those that are readily useable in the day to day life; I think some of the people here does the same. And when one of these practical info is a bit wide of the mark, I just feel a little more hopeless.
I'm not saying that the doc is wrong on all his statements. I'm just saying that maybe in some questions,after a quick glance, he types an answer that not really represents the entirety of what is correct.
But as I've said before, I still love the doc (I have much thanks for him as I got the zinc idea from him). I know the doctor has vast knowledge and experience, has very good intentions, and I'm thankful that he is here and is helping us, thankful that he is sharing very very valuable information.
I do believe that the doc's mouthwash would be more effective than any of the Listerines, and I will be searching the posts to know the name of his mouthwash and where to buy them as I definitely would want to try them out.
His statement was not about effectivity, but about availability. Which could have prevented other people from seeking out the product that could possibly help. And made me think he is not keeping up with the changes done by players in his industry, and that a little of his knowledge might be outdated.
And it's not just the zinc info, but the other statements cited by Hooch above, and then some. And I don't think the doctor has replied to some of those who scratched their head and asked about his statements. Statements like:
- saying halimeters mean nothing then saying he got a patient's score from 120 to 90 with treatment
- saying metals don't smell so don't remove amalgams then saying a boy was cured when braces were removed and a girl was cured when metal tongue piercing was removed
- saying antibiotics do not have permanent effect on microbial flora which made me wonder since intestinal flora inhabited by h-pylori can be permanently changed by antibiotics
An average individual like me might skip the posts that discuss 'pseudomembranous colitis' or 'immunoglobulins' but would be readily eager to read those with practical information in layman's terms, those that are readily useable in the day to day life; I think some of the people here does the same. And when one of these practical info is a bit wide of the mark, I just feel a little more hopeless.
I'm not saying that the doc is wrong on all his statements. I'm just saying that maybe in some questions,after a quick glance, he types an answer that not really represents the entirety of what is correct.
But as I've said before, I still love the doc (I have much thanks for him as I got the zinc idea from him). I know the doctor has vast knowledge and experience, has very good intentions, and I'm thankful that he is here and is helping us, thankful that he is sharing very very valuable information.
I do believe that the doc's mouthwash would be more effective than any of the Listerines, and I will be searching the posts to know the name of his mouthwash and where to buy them as I definitely would want to try them out.
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halitosisux
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Bad day, like I said, its about how each of us interprets the information.
We have to wait and hear his response over the Listerine. What he said at the time made sense, but maybe you are right.
But, look at the halimeter interpretation. I think what he tried to say is that halimeters are inherently unreliable for telling a person whether they have bad breath or not, because they dont measure every type of gas associated with BB and in the hands of a non-scientific person the results could mean absolutely anything. If the person being measured had not been instructed very carefully in what NOT to eat or do for the 24 hours prior to testing for example. The halimeter is also very useful for testing the response to various reduction methods, such as the correct type of zinc.
Correct, amalgam does not smell, nor do any metals. But some can have electrochemical reactions and release odours in that way or interact with bacteria etc (silver for example). Obviously if amalgam could cause odours then anyone with amalgam fillings would produce them. That's why he advised not to remove them - my god can you imagine if he did and everyone starts coming back saying they just spent $$$$$ for nothing?
I think you've misunderstood the H pylori information. I've run out of time this morning, but I will explain something to you on this when I get back tonight.
Generally though, I dont think any of this is called for against the doc. He struggles enough with the language barrier to tell us things to try to help us understand things enough as it is, without him having to start defending misunderstandings. The info is there to be interpreted, and all of it in my opinion is absolutely correct.
We have to wait and hear his response over the Listerine. What he said at the time made sense, but maybe you are right.
But, look at the halimeter interpretation. I think what he tried to say is that halimeters are inherently unreliable for telling a person whether they have bad breath or not, because they dont measure every type of gas associated with BB and in the hands of a non-scientific person the results could mean absolutely anything. If the person being measured had not been instructed very carefully in what NOT to eat or do for the 24 hours prior to testing for example. The halimeter is also very useful for testing the response to various reduction methods, such as the correct type of zinc.
Correct, amalgam does not smell, nor do any metals. But some can have electrochemical reactions and release odours in that way or interact with bacteria etc (silver for example). Obviously if amalgam could cause odours then anyone with amalgam fillings would produce them. That's why he advised not to remove them - my god can you imagine if he did and everyone starts coming back saying they just spent $$$$$ for nothing?
I think you've misunderstood the H pylori information. I've run out of time this morning, but I will explain something to you on this when I get back tonight.
Generally though, I dont think any of this is called for against the doc. He struggles enough with the language barrier to tell us things to try to help us understand things enough as it is, without him having to start defending misunderstandings. The info is there to be interpreted, and all of it in my opinion is absolutely correct.
See above Hal...no one has it in for the Doc...we are just asking justified questions...you wouldn't blindly swallow everything your own GP said to you would you? So please stop saying we are have it in for the Doc..it's really unhelpful...he really has said conflicting things..told me blatantly to 'forget Halimeters...they record imaginary numbers' then went on to cite a successful cure recording via halimeter...so again I am not misinterpreting things and neither are the other guys on here.Hooch wrote:I think Aydimur's information on here is invaluable...and am most grateful...but with all due respect
I don't mean to be combatative of disrespectful I am just genuinely confused.
Hal, ok let's just wait for his response about the Listerine.
Regarding the halimeter, you just made statements that are really very informative and helpful. Now if I juxtapose it with the doc's statement that 'halimeters record imaginary numbers' and let someone outside the forum read it and tell him that both statements are correct, is it not reasonable to think that the reader would get confused?
As for the amalgam, the doc made his statements in the context of altering oral flora. I think it is a reasonable assumption that the removal of a metal foreign object from the mouth can alter flora after reading the doc's sample that the removal of metal tongue piercing and braces cured people because the removal itself altered the flora. And your example of silver interacting with bacteria - amalgam is part mercury and part silver. So wouldn't it be reasonable to think that amalgam fillings interact with bacteria and that removing it would then leave you with a mouth with one less item with which bacteria can interact?
As for the H-pylori, I think I just need the doc's clarification on what he meant by antibiotics not having permanent effect on microbial flora. He actually did not mention H-pylori in that post.
I don't have anything against the doc. As I've said, I love that he is here and I'll continue to value his posts. But since this is a forum where people look for advice, I think it is reasonable to request the doc for clarification when there is reasonable confusion; just to make sure we understand and so that we could put the info to good use.
Also I don't think there is a language barrier. I don't really think the doc is struggling with the language because all his posts that I've read, I've perfectly understood. And his replies have perfectly matched the questions he was replying to. So I think the doctor has very good command of the language.
Regarding the halimeter, you just made statements that are really very informative and helpful. Now if I juxtapose it with the doc's statement that 'halimeters record imaginary numbers' and let someone outside the forum read it and tell him that both statements are correct, is it not reasonable to think that the reader would get confused?
As for the amalgam, the doc made his statements in the context of altering oral flora. I think it is a reasonable assumption that the removal of a metal foreign object from the mouth can alter flora after reading the doc's sample that the removal of metal tongue piercing and braces cured people because the removal itself altered the flora. And your example of silver interacting with bacteria - amalgam is part mercury and part silver. So wouldn't it be reasonable to think that amalgam fillings interact with bacteria and that removing it would then leave you with a mouth with one less item with which bacteria can interact?
As for the H-pylori, I think I just need the doc's clarification on what he meant by antibiotics not having permanent effect on microbial flora. He actually did not mention H-pylori in that post.
I don't have anything against the doc. As I've said, I love that he is here and I'll continue to value his posts. But since this is a forum where people look for advice, I think it is reasonable to request the doc for clarification when there is reasonable confusion; just to make sure we understand and so that we could put the info to good use.
Also I don't think there is a language barrier. I don't really think the doc is struggling with the language because all his posts that I've read, I've perfectly understood. And his replies have perfectly matched the questions he was replying to. So I think the doctor has very good command of the language.
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aydinmur
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>bad day1:
>You also told me that Listerine does not have zinc. I was very
>very surprised that you did not know that there is a Listerine
>product with zinc chloride, given that you're into the oral health
>industry and that Listerine is a global brand. The Listerine with
> zinc is even available in Ankara
There is one type Listerin in Turkiye. Its dark green. doesnt contain zinc.
I would like to share Preliminary report of my study that Im currently working on. See how most rinses make halitosis:
http://agizkokusu.net/garbage/tablo.jpg
- Murat Aydin
>You also told me that Listerine does not have zinc. I was very
>very surprised that you did not know that there is a Listerine
>product with zinc chloride, given that you're into the oral health
>industry and that Listerine is a global brand. The Listerine with
> zinc is even available in Ankara
There is one type Listerin in Turkiye. Its dark green. doesnt contain zinc.
I would like to share Preliminary report of my study that Im currently working on. See how most rinses make halitosis:
http://agizkokusu.net/garbage/tablo.jpg
- Murat Aydin
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aydinmur
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>- saying metals don't smell so don't remove amalgams then
>saying a boy was cured when braces were removed and a girl
> was cured when metal tongue piercing was removed
Metals never smell.
In order to emit a smell from a material, its molecules must vaporise in room air. These enters into nose, change electrical polarisation of receptor cells. Nervus olfactorii carries electrical stimulus to brain as specific smell of that material. Metals (except mercury) never vaporise at room temparature. Thus they dont smell. Hope its clear this time?
Yes I have some cases who are healed with adding metal their mouth or removing metals. These are uncommon cases., Abnormal and interesting cases. I have shared with you some of extraordinary cases. From now on, I will not share intersting cases that I cured or encountered.
- Murat Aydın
>saying a boy was cured when braces were removed and a girl
> was cured when metal tongue piercing was removed
Metals never smell.
In order to emit a smell from a material, its molecules must vaporise in room air. These enters into nose, change electrical polarisation of receptor cells. Nervus olfactorii carries electrical stimulus to brain as specific smell of that material. Metals (except mercury) never vaporise at room temparature. Thus they dont smell. Hope its clear this time?
Yes I have some cases who are healed with adding metal their mouth or removing metals. These are uncommon cases., Abnormal and interesting cases. I have shared with you some of extraordinary cases. From now on, I will not share intersting cases that I cured or encountered.
- Murat Aydın
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aydinmur
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>And I don't think the doctor has replied to some of those who scratched
>their head and asked about his statements. Statements like:
>- saying halimeters mean nothing then saying he got a patient's score
>from 120 to 90 with treatment
As I have previously written on this forum, Halitometres measure instant gas level. If patient ate garlic yesterday we measure abnormal gas level. Means nothing. If we believe halitometer only, we may misdiagnose with such a person. In order to avoid such halitometric fails, I have developed systematic and successive measurements more than four times from either mouth or nose of that person.
Magnitudes of these measurements are not important. Their Scattering, or situation of each value according to each others are important for diagnose of halitosis. Because, Halimeter is not specific for every gases that are responsible from bad odor in mouth.
Also it is easy measure wrong values. For example It measures 205 pbb of halitosis even in Apricot juice package. See this: http://agizkokusu.net/garbage/juice.jpg
For this reason, once halimeter measurement alone is not important. As I have previously said to Mr Hooch: If once measurement was done with halitometer then forget it. They record imaginary numbers.
Hope its clear now?
- Murat Aydin
>their head and asked about his statements. Statements like:
>- saying halimeters mean nothing then saying he got a patient's score
>from 120 to 90 with treatment
As I have previously written on this forum, Halitometres measure instant gas level. If patient ate garlic yesterday we measure abnormal gas level. Means nothing. If we believe halitometer only, we may misdiagnose with such a person. In order to avoid such halitometric fails, I have developed systematic and successive measurements more than four times from either mouth or nose of that person.
Magnitudes of these measurements are not important. Their Scattering, or situation of each value according to each others are important for diagnose of halitosis. Because, Halimeter is not specific for every gases that are responsible from bad odor in mouth.
Also it is easy measure wrong values. For example It measures 205 pbb of halitosis even in Apricot juice package. See this: http://agizkokusu.net/garbage/juice.jpg
For this reason, once halimeter measurement alone is not important. As I have previously said to Mr Hooch: If once measurement was done with halitometer then forget it. They record imaginary numbers.
Hope its clear now?
- Murat Aydin
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aydinmur
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>- saying antibiotics do not have permanent effect on microbial
>flora which made me wonder since intestinal flora inhabited
>by h-pylori can be permanently changed by antibiotics
Antibiotics do not have permanent effect on microbial flora.
When antibiotic has been ceased, then, flora turns back its descriptive form. Antibiotics can not stationary alter microbial profile.
If Bordetella is added to respiratuar flora, then erythromycin presses on flora bacteria particularly on Bordetella. After antibiotic stops, it turns to normal. There is not stationary effect.
If Streptococus pyogenes is added throat then penicillin inhibits all flora bacteria particularly S. pyogenes. When antibiotic is stopped throat flora turns to normal. There is not stationary effect.
Hope helps
-Murat Aydın
>flora which made me wonder since intestinal flora inhabited
>by h-pylori can be permanently changed by antibiotics
Antibiotics do not have permanent effect on microbial flora.
When antibiotic has been ceased, then, flora turns back its descriptive form. Antibiotics can not stationary alter microbial profile.
If Bordetella is added to respiratuar flora, then erythromycin presses on flora bacteria particularly on Bordetella. After antibiotic stops, it turns to normal. There is not stationary effect.
If Streptococus pyogenes is added throat then penicillin inhibits all flora bacteria particularly S. pyogenes. When antibiotic is stopped throat flora turns to normal. There is not stationary effect.
Hope helps
-Murat Aydın
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aydinmur
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Sputnik and all friends,sputnik wrote:Always a pleasure reading your posts Aydinmur and please do keep posting some of the more interesting cases you come across.
I am sure that most people on this forum sincerely find them most informative.
I love each of you separately, but, you know, my English is not very good, some people misunderstand and hardly animadvert me, even without listen my explanations.
If Im annoy people here, I m ready to unsubscribe. Otherwise we all should pay attention to keep our patience and respects to each other.
- Murat Aydin
Hi Doc Murat,
Thank you very much for clarifying. Your posts gave me the bigger picture and now just cleared things up, for me personally for that matter.
And I apologise if you felt antagonised by my recent posts. That was not my intention. They might appear inconsiderate and confrontational, I kindly ask for your understanding and look at those posts as written by someone so frustrated by his bb affliction.
Regarding the Listerine:
Also doc, is it possible to buy from you the zinc mouthwash? Is it possible for you maybe to ask one of your staff to keep in touch with us and to ship to us the zinc mouthwash? I really don't believe that the Listerine I'm using right now will give me long term effects, but I am a lot more hopeful for more positive results from your product.
Again doc, I humbly apologise for my posts if it came to you as disrespectful. I'll keep saying this, I love that you are here and I'll keep valuing your posts. Also as sputnik said, keep posting the interesting cases (as maybe one of us will also fall under that category).
Thank you very much for clarifying. Your posts gave me the bigger picture and now just cleared things up, for me personally for that matter.
And I apologise if you felt antagonised by my recent posts. That was not my intention. They might appear inconsiderate and confrontational, I kindly ask for your understanding and look at those posts as written by someone so frustrated by his bb affliction.
Regarding the Listerine:
Noted on that. I apologise again for my statements about this and I won't argue about it anymore.aydinmur wrote:>There is one type Listerin in Turkiye. Its dark green. doesnt contain zinc.
Also doc, is it possible to buy from you the zinc mouthwash? Is it possible for you maybe to ask one of your staff to keep in touch with us and to ship to us the zinc mouthwash? I really don't believe that the Listerine I'm using right now will give me long term effects, but I am a lot more hopeful for more positive results from your product.
Again doc, I humbly apologise for my posts if it came to you as disrespectful. I'll keep saying this, I love that you are here and I'll keep valuing your posts. Also as sputnik said, keep posting the interesting cases (as maybe one of us will also fall under that category).
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halitosisux
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Aydinmur, Bad day1 made the point about amalgam and its silver content. In your opinion and to your knowledge, could there possibly be any kind of bacterial interaction with the amalgam metals/chemicals that could possibly cause chronic bad breath? Could there be only certain types of bacterial species that interact with amalgam, so that it depends on bacterial profile as to whether amalgam could affect only certain people?
Also, just to recap, what is contained in your mouthwash formula? How does it compare against the other mouthwash tests you showed us http://agizkokusu.net/garbage/tablo.jpg
You've said its not possible for anyone to purchase your zinc mouthwash unless they purchase in bulk - but could something be devised that allows people on here to obtain at least a sample (or even make their own from your instructions?)
Also, just to recap, what is contained in your mouthwash formula? How does it compare against the other mouthwash tests you showed us http://agizkokusu.net/garbage/tablo.jpg
You've said its not possible for anyone to purchase your zinc mouthwash unless they purchase in bulk - but could something be devised that allows people on here to obtain at least a sample (or even make their own from your instructions?)
