my history of bb

seanlee1980 · Post by **seanlee1980** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:04 am

I'm posting this to perhaps spark some ideas and solutions as well as recollecting my personal history with bad breath.

My bb began in 8th grade. I am now 32 years old. My father has chronic halitosis. I believe I have the same type of smell which I can describe as similar to rotten meat/dead animal. I do not know when he started having bad breath as I have never approached him about it. We do not have body odor. I believe we have the same type of personality - easily aggitated and angered, stressed. I started to get gray hair early...I would say around 19 years of age. I would also say I am a nervous guy but my father is not. I get this from my mother.

I have taken my tonsils out when I was about 26 hoping it would be the cure but failed to be one. I tried antibiotics. The first antibiotics I tried was levaquin which was about a year before the tonsil surgery. It eliminated my bb and I thought I was cured but gradually it became ineffective. I have tried other antibiotics but also ineffective. I have tried anti candida drugs but they were also ineffective. I have gone on strict diets if vegetables and fruits. Although it helps, my breath is not completely odorless. Maybe it's ketone breath - bad breath when you are not consuming enough carbohydrate.

I do not have h.pylori bacteria. I have been tested for this under anesthesia. I have low counts of IgA. I have taken allergy shots...doesn't help with the breath.

I tried st. Johns wort a few months ago and it surprisingly cured my bb for a few days but it became ineffective as well.

I do not have tmau.

I am leaning towards enzyme deficiency or hormones imbalance or maybe a combination of both that is making my saliva "enzyme" deficient to fight the odor causing bacteria or fungus. A question I have is why doesn't my mucous or nasal discharge from my nose smell? I am thinking it is my saliva composition that is abnormal.

seanlee1980 · Post by **seanlee1980** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:01 am

If we don't have gum disease, teeth decay, tonsils and our oral regimen is good, what is the only difference between a normal person and someone like us? Everyone's crap stinks. Also even if you have pnd, gerd, hpyori, diabetes or other health concerns you can't say these are causes of bb because there are many with these problems who don't have bb. If toxins are being passed to our bloodstream or secretions, why don't our sweat or mucous smell? The only logical difference between a normal person and me is the saliva. A normal person's saliva is a detergent as my saliva is just water. I have morning breath 24/7 because my saliva is ineffective. Try sucking a lemon all day long and your breath will not smell. Of course this is not good for your teeth, but you get my point. People have this natural detergent that works all day while they are awake. People usually have morning breath but it goes away quickly as their saliva production returns to normal.

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:58 am

Maybe in type-1 chronic BB there are missing components of saliva which would normally control the microbial levels and the levels of microbial activity. But according to what is known about these components which are active against the microorganisms in the mouth is that their action is normally so weak that even if they were not present at all, they would not lead to bad breath. These components are there to protect the tissues of the mouth, incase you cut or scratch them.

I think far more likely is that there might be some component in saliva which neutralizes odour, which might be missing or weakened in some people. Something which actually breaks up the chemicals which smell. The only reason why I don't believe this to be the case, is because I've observed in a few people I know, who I've never known to ever have bad breath, and then all of a sudden they've started having bad breath. In each of these cases it turned out they'd started developing some minor dental problem. So, if the odour neutralizing components in their saliva was helping to keep them bad breath-free before their dental problem arose, why isn't it now neutralizing the odours that they are now producing?

One of the people I'm referring to here, I've known him for years. Never remember him having bad breath. I bumped into him in a supermarket and couldn't believe it when he was talking right in my face (as he always does) and could smell his bad breath - proper mothball type whiff. Then a few weeks later I was sitting in a dentist waiting room and he walked in and he told me he's gone in for some treatment. He was completely oblivious to his bad breath.

Phantasist · Post by **Phantasist** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:46 pm

Seanlee1980,

A couple of years ago I was convinced that I was missing an antibacterial component in my saliva, i.e. Immunoglobulin A. I was also convinced that this was due to an inherited genetic defect because my mother always had an odor on her breath. A lot of circumstantial evidence points in that direction, such as morning breath. A lot of people have it because saliva production shuts down during sleep, but when "normal" people get up in the morning, the breath odor disappears within a few minutes because saliva production is resumed. What could be more logical than to assume that saliva has something to do with bad breath? And yet Halitosisux has told me repeatedly that I am full of beans. So I expected his response as soon as I saw your post.
At this point I don't know who is right or wrong, so I will not go through the Kabuki Dance with Halitosisux again, but I will say this: If Halitosisux is correct, then we all have a chance to be cured. If it is an immune deficiency in our saliva due to a genetic defect, then we're all finished. No one can change our genetic makeup.

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:05 pm

Phantasist, as I've said numerous times, I've never dismissed your theories, I've only ever tried to weigh up different possibilities with you. If I hadn't, would anything be any different anway? Have you even had basic immunological tests?

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:13 pm

Seanlee, by the way, I forgot to mention one other possibility for type-1 BB. We've mentioned the possibility of missing components in saliva being responsible for bacterial overactivity in the mouth. But it may also be because of something in saliva which shouldn't be, such as higher than normal levels of certain proteins, leading to a bacterial frenzy on the tongue.

Even just the slightest amount of blood seeping into the mouth from somewhere can lead to bad breath (as an example).

Phantasist · Post by **Phantasist** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:43 pm

Halitosisux,

I didn't mean to annoy you. I merely meant to convey, in my long-winded, roundabout way, that I had considered the defective saliva theory and put it on the sidelines because you kept telling me that it's not very likely. I am now working on another theory: excessive accumulated mucus in my throat which might be a "bacteria factory". I don't know where the mucus is coming from.

seanlee1980 · Post by **seanlee1980** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:10 pm

Halitosissux, thanks for your response. I am just making common sense out of my situation with bad breath. It's only logical saliva has something to do with my condition. And in turn, my hormones or immune system has to do something with my saliva makeup. You make a good point. Although it has antimicrobial agents, I don't think it is enough to eradicate the bad breath bugs. I've read saliva is comprised of 98% water.

You also bring up an interesting point about proteins that feed the bacteria. Think about what people go through when they hit puberty. One of the more common things that happen is people get pimples. Hormones produce more oil on our skin which make it a nice environment for the bacteria to thrive. This is a bit analogous to your idea. Maybe our saliva is like the pimple inducing oil that causes bad breath.

I am intrigued by HopefulOne's cure by removing her uterus and ovaries. Obviously her hormones were the root of her problems. Maybe it's not what were lacking in saliva, but something that is added to it because of our hormone levels.

seanlee1980 · Post by **seanlee1980** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:21 pm

Peroxidase is comprised in our saliva which is supposed to be an antimicrobial agent. I am ignorant about chemistry but this is supposed to cause chemical reactions that kills bacteria. IgA is also present in saliva and I know for a fact I have low counts. But as mentioned, 98% of saliva is water so I don't know if it makes a difference to have low peroxidase or low IgA.

seanlee1980 · Post by **seanlee1980** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:32 pm

Hormones produce more protein in saliva -
http://www.newbeauty.com/dailybeauty/entry.aspx?id=4669

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:52 pm

yr welcome seanlee. On the point about saliva's antimicrobial agents - if they were so powerful that they are normally able to prevent bad breath, they would surely be so powerful that there'd be none of the bad breath bacteria at all left in the mouth - something which we know is never the case, even in BB free people.

That link about protein levels in saliva being related to hormone levels is very interesting - regarding hopefulone's cure.

Phantasist, you haven't annoyed me. It just disheartens me when you imply that I've been outright dismissive of your theories like I'm being belligerent about it and a hindrance to you, when I'm only trying to help weigh up different theories and ideas with everyone who wishes to discuss them. But, it's probably just the fact that we're all limited to talking to each other through a keyboard and it's easy to make misunderstandings this way.

Anyway, I have a number of points to make about your excessive accumulated mucus theory which I haven't seen you mention yet.

By the way, I have no doubt that if excessive levels of mucus are constantly pooling up at the back of your throat, that this could lead to excessive bacterial activity on the back of your tongue and lead to rapid putrification of any stagnant mucus in the vicinity.

An important point which Aydinmur has mentioned is the amount of "gas" which normally constantly "leaks" up from the stomach. Mucus is produced by every area of mucous membrane. When there is irritation involved this can become really excessive. Any excessive mucus in the throat could be produced by the mucous membranes in that area. This could be happening because you might have some hidden irritability factor involved, such as this gas rising from the stomach, particularly if it's above normal levels. You might even have an allergy to this hydrochloric gas.

I noticed you mentioned in another thread that there's nothing you can do about it if your problem relates to LPR, but are you quite sure about that? The only reason why LPR would affect anyone is because of the acid which is involved. It might be worth you trying out acid lowering medications if you've never tried anything like that before. Any changes to your mucus quantities could give you valuable clues.

potty_mouth · Post by **potty_mouth** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:00 pm

My breath also seems to be at its worst when my saliva is very thick too. And I have recently been diagnosed with reflux and an ulcer, so Phantasist and Halitosisux may be onto something.
But there are other considerations when comparing what makes one person's saliva different from another. I think i've posted about this test before...
http://www.intestinalbarriertest.com/pd ... ojdani.pdf
There has been a lot of discussion about intestinal permeability being an extra-oral cause of BB (and body odour), but this shows how permeability can lead to changes in the saliva too.
It's very conceivable then, that such changes may result in thickened or more proteinous saliva as an immunological response (to dietary triggers), and in defending itself against those triggers, the mucosa helps to create an environment where anaerobic bacteria thrive.
If I lived in the US I'd have done the test by now, just out of curiosity.

Phantasist · Post by **Phantasist** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:08 pm

Halitosisux,

Thanks for your thoughts on what might be producing the excessive mucus in my throat. I suppose stomach acid could be the culprit, although I don't have any symptoms of distress in the stomach.

The last few months I have developed a mysterious chin rash that is not going away. I might have to see a dermatologist, but I'm wondering if it is due to the toothpaste I'm using because the paste always bubbles out of my mouth and runs down my chin. I might be allergic to some ingredient in toothpaste. I also wonder if the toothpaste could have something to do with the mucus in my throat. Wouldn't it be ironic if toothpaste is causing my breath odor? I think I will make my own toothpaste from baking soda and 3% hydrogen peroxide.

Also, I have never believed that you are dismissive, or belligerent or that you have ever been a hindrance to me. Don't let my sarcasm get to you. I just consider it a form of subtle humor, and God knows we all need a little humor in this forum.

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:03 pm

Thanks Phantasist. You never know, maybe you do have an allergy to some ingredient in your toothpaste. Hopefully your home-made toothpaste will help you to determine this.

Potty_mouth, that's really interesting. I need to do some reading into this.