Dolittle

[Sickandtired]

Good evening. @Dolittle, i didnt knew where to post mine quuestion so after seeing your posts, i was wondering do u maybe have some toughts on my case, i'm now more than ever sure that my breath smells like sweat i dont know how else to describe it, and standard white tongue and reallyyy dry mouth oh and odor from nose sometimes but the fact that is smelling like sweat is there something that may be characteristically to this smell, since a lot of ppl here say theay have fecal smell, but mine is like pure sweat/sweaty sockets almost all the time. Any kind of help could really help me since today was very bad day and im really sick of all this shit!!

[halitosisux]

@Gooner, your oralchroma results showed elevated DMS and zero readings for hydrogen sulphide and methylmercaptan. I'm curious to know what kind of BB symptoms you have?

Do you have tonsil stones/tonsil odour for example?

Do you have an excessively coated tongue?

Do odours build up on your tongue?

@dolittle, when you say that gut bacteria can synthesize DMS, does this mean that DMS can also be produced in other ways other than by gut bacteria?

I don't have any links on this condensing gas theory. It's something I remember reading about many years ago as a theory into the production of tonsilloliths. I will try to search for what I read and let you know if I find anything.

If VSC gases stay in solution in nasal secretions, then surely if they've had a chance to build up through condensation, they'll evaporate in just the same way as they do on the back of the tongue or on the back of the hand as they evaporate during breathing out? The whole dynamics of a normal functioning nasal system could create a situation for some people where there's a continuous cycle of condensing, buildup and evaporation of these foul smelling gases.

Also, I remember when I still had my tonsils, that I had multiple crypts on each tonsil. Both my tonsils looked fairly identical in terms of size and positioning and number and size of crypts. If stasis is the predisposing factor for the accumulation and buildup of the material from which the stones are formed, I would have expected only certain crypts to be capable of allowing stones to form? This was certainly not true in my case. Every crypt on my right side tonsil produced very foul smelling stones. My left tonsil was the same, but produced a far less number (and size) of stones, and this again was a uniform production of stone and stench for each crypt on that side. Generally the left tonsil was far less stinky than my right. Coincidentally (or not?) I had a wisdom tooth on my right side, which I later discovered after my tonsils were removed, was producing a very foul tonsillolith-like smelling discharge from the gum this tooth was half sunken into. To me this says that tonsil stones are more the result of what's going on in the mouth rather than anything specifically abnormal about the tonsils themselves. This also correlates with the fact that most people on this forum who have undergone tonsillectomy have not really noticed much (if any) improvement to their BB.

By the way, I'm not sure if tonsil crypts are joined up inside the tonsils or whether they are separate. If they are joined then that would explain any uniformity of crypt stench and stone production from each tonsil.

Sorry if I'm talking a load of nonsense in certain things I've said. A lot of it is just ideas which I've always wondered about and taking the opportunity to ask questions and to have these discussions.

[halitosisux]

By the way @dolittle, I think if you were really able to establish a specialist NHS centre for the investigation, diagnosis and treatment of all types of malodour condition, then this would be the best thing that could ever happen. Just imagine the recognition and the dignity this would give to people. A place where nobody has to persuade their doctor to try things. A place where doctors do their job and take people seriously from start to finish, as they do for other illnesses. A place where research and new ideas can come together and new discoveries can be made.

Why has it taken this long?

Why have we all been left to solve this devastating problem for ourselves when nearly every other health issue gets the resources it needs?

I could go completely nuts if I think about this too deeply.

[Gooner]

It would be great to have a centre like that. You would be absolutely inundated with requests for treatment, you would need a huge clinic

@ Halitosisux - Just to explain I did the 2 oralchroma tests in January 2010 and I have had some changes to my BB ie nasal BB is 100% worse and mouth BB 90% better.

Tonsils - yes I definately had major tonsil odour in January 2010. I had a laser tonsillectomy in February 2012 and this is greatly improved now, my mouth BB isnt too bad and on some days I dont think I have detectable mouth BB at all. If I press the tonsils etc yeah I get odours but I think it could easily be masked with mouthwash and brushing like a 'normal' person. This is a recent development though so not relevant to the old tests I did. If this is all I had to worry about it be delighted but nasal BB has overtook the mouth BB since Jan 2010.

Tongue - I have a permanent coating but its improved a bit since trying Lufenuron. I dont worry about it too much, I dont think I have any tongue odour at the front and middle of my tongue, either in January 2010 or now. The tongue odour is/was from towards the back of the tongue but that has improved after I dealt with my tonsils so I think its linked directly to that. The odour was tonsil stone odour like.

Nasal BB - I had started to get this in late 2009 and this in fact was what led me to get the oralchroma tests done. The odour did and does vary so much, it can be like sweat (like sickandtired is describing), fecal, garbage and previously tonsil stone odour like (reduced sensations of this since the tonsils op).

Im really feeling positive about this enforced mouth breathing though, first thing in the morning all this week I have had no/little mouth BB and no/little nasal BB. Its only by the evening that the fecal/sweat/garbage odours start to get worse as I slip back into the habit of just breathing through my nose. Maybe its because ive taken some GSE tablets and psyllium husk tablets but I doubt it, ive done all these sorts of things before. I dont think the Lufenuron has anything to do with it either as I had no die off and never actually had it confirmed that I candida in the first place.

[halitosisux]

Gooner, thanks for that info.
I need to think about this and read through some previous posts to try to understand how your oralchroma results might connect with tonsil odour. Maybe dolittle has some info on this.

Is a laser tonsillectomy where they open up/close off tonsil crypts or is it where they use a laser to cut out the tonsils? I'm a bit confused why your tonsils still smell when you press them if you've had a laser tonsillectomy.

Has anyone else who's ever suffered with tonsil stones ever had an oralchroma test?

I think we must all have some inherent susceptibility to BB based on whatever bacterial profile we happen to have, either in our mouth or our gut.

How else can it be possible that some people can have a mouth full of deformed rotten teeth and no bad breath, and I just had 1 stupid wisdom tooth that didn't erupt properly and my mouth ends up smelling like a pig farm for 25 years.

How else can it be that some people (meowkity for example) can take these expensive s.salivarius BLIS probiotics and no longer have BB? We do see occasionally that it works for some people. So maybe it really does depend on whatever bacterial profile we happen to have.

And what about the people who appear to have "caught" BB from kissing and the person who Phantasist described who was magically cured on his honeymoon night.

dolittle, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this. Maybe the same thing is happening in the gut too, leading to bloodborne BB.

[dolittle]

Good evening. @Dolittle, i didnt knew where to post mine quuestion so after seeing your posts, i was wondering do u maybe have some toughts on my case, i'm now more than ever sure that my breath smells like sweat i dont know how else to describe it, and standard white tongue and reallyyy dry mouth oh and odor from nose sometimes but the fact that is smelling like sweat is there something that may be characteristically to this smell, since a lot of ppl here say theay have fecal smell, but mine is like pure sweat/sweaty sockets almost all the time. Any kind of help could really help me since today was very bad day and im really sick of all this shit!!

Bromhidrosis?
http://www.bloodbornebodyodorandhalitos ... omhidrosis

Or even Isolvaleric acidemia?
http://www.bloodbornebodyodorandhalitos ... demia.html
http://www.bloodbornebodyodorandhalitos ... -feet.html
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/isovaleric-acidemia

I have spoken to only a few other sufferers with exact symptom as you, but they don't have isovaleric acidemia.

Another possibility is the the new metabolic condition caused by dimethylsulfidemia. The odor produced by DMS seems to have many descriptions.

[dolittle]

ENT paper is coming along great. So interesting. I finished the tonsil stone topic, and also Zenker's diverticulum. In terms of nasal and sinus causes of halitosis, I've covered:

Nasal Foreign Body & rhinoliths
Chronic Atrophic Rhinitis & Ozena
Nasal and paranasal sinus tumours
“Glanders” - Burkholderia mallei infection

and planning to cover these other causes:
Purulent rhinitis & sinusitis
Nasal diphtheria & nasal tuberculosis
“Post nasal drip”

When you say condensing, what do you mean exactly? You mean e.g. mucus or pus drying up, releasing malodorous volatiles from suspension? I think it might be easier if I try make my paper free to read the full text online. Usually this is up to the publisher though.

I'm sorry to say, but when I was reading you talking about the individual smell from different tonsillar crypts, I realised we are all sounding a bit halitphobic, lol. Same with me, left tonsil gave all the breath problems. Right was fine. They took it out anyway, it may have gone the same way in time and just saves another operation.

You might find this paper interesting, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term ... 20patients

The crypts do seem to be all linked and interconnecting in each tonsil, so the same halitogenic dysbiosis would likely be present throughout the the crypt system of the entire tonsil.

One of the possible roles of the crypt system is to monitor what bacteria are growing in the oral cavity and the throat, so it is very likely that the bacterial populations are comparable in the same individual.

I highly doubt the NHS would give a contract for such a practice. I was talking about private, but it would be ethical. Plus I am building links with other specialists so extraoral causes of halitosis could be effectively investigated and then referred to the correct specialist who was educated and knowledgeable in that particular condition. It is my dream to start such a centre, but my confidence has been hugely shaken by this symptom. I used to be able to give presentations to large audiences on my research, now I get panic attacks if I have to be on busy wards.

Why has it taken this long? stigma, taboo, shame. Mostly doctors not being knowledgeable about how to approach this clinical problem, and their arrogance takes over and patients with real problems get fobbed off that it is all in their head and they are being overly sensitive. Then the patient walks out of the surgery and the public abuse continues. Its a really absurd situation. Any other medical symptom would never be managed in such a way.

I'm not going to post again in a while. I think I can help most by publishing these papers. I will let you know when they are written and put a link here

[halitosisux]

By condensing, I mean pool of foul-smelling liquid/mucus at the back of the tongue and throat area produced by the breeding ground of bacteria present there, and as a person breathes out and these liquids evaporate, the vapour condenses onto the linings in the nasal cavity and in some cases may be pooling up, perhaps even calcifying etc in some of the crevices, in the same way that tonsil stones might be formed.

This is purely a concept, based on what I read many years ago, that tonsil stones are formed in this way from the VSCs in the mouth as they evaporate and condense in crevices.

Gooner said his nasal BB diminished by blocking his nose during sleep and preventing the air flowing outwards. So this made me wonder how that could be possible, since you would normally expect odourous/infected situations in the nose to worsen with less aspiration.

Also, having read every single post on this forum since 2008, it appears to be the case that just about every person who suffers with nasal odours developed this some time after they became aware that they had bad breath from the mouth. Not vice-versa.

When a person knows they've had bad breath at some point in their life, the fears never go. The same demons of negativity which allowed it to ever become an issue in the first place never go away. I think I will always be halitophobic (fear that my breath may smell bad, as opposed to a certainty that my breath must smell bad).

Interesting to know that tonsil crypts are all linked up together inside the tonsils. Had I known this while I still had tonsils, I would have made better use of this fact while trying to clean my stones out.

Good luck with your papers and progress towards the establishment of a dedicated centre to put people onto the right tracks. This is what is so badly needed. I find it so frustrating that people can get any kind of NHS help where a medical problem can cause psychological suffering and impairment. Bad breath is the worst nightmare imaginable, not just because of the way it eats into everything that makes a person human, but because of the despair when facing a world that thinks this problem is easy to deal with, when the reality for many is the complete opposite.

[mike987]

Someone had posted something quite detailed about Tonsils and their role in flushing the endocrine system, somewhat recently.

I don't know about anyone else who had tonsil stones, but my lymphatic glands all over my body always seem a little large, as if the body is constantly fighting an infection (allergies? Low immunity related?). The ones near my crotch area are very easy to feel out.

Unlike halitosissux, I've never known a single place in my mouth to stink like tonsil stones except the tonsils themselves. I really thought that smell we all love to hate was coming from bacteria rotting in the crypts.. I still think that's quite likely, if not a combination of both. Would explain your tooth smell, halitosissux..

But, is it also possible that there's a constant leakage of lymph fluid through the various tonsils, and that overactive lymphatic systems have to work extra hard to empty more than the usual amount of infections in the body? That perhaps such fluid is pooling in our crypts, constantly draining from our adenoid tonsils near the sinuses, and causing a feeding frenzy of bacteria?


I don't have that tonsil stone taste anymore after having the tonsillectomy... But I do have a strange, almost acid taste, that seems to occur within my saliva, very often, not even 10 min. after brushing, gargling, etc... What are the bacteria feeding on? And what bacteria, after nuking my mouth with a complex regime? What if I'm tasting the result of the excreted lymph, and either that alone can cause odors, or that kick starts struggling bacteria back into play?

I still have my adenoid tonsils, and I have to wonder if even the closed off remains of the tonsils have some pores, or some welling of toxic lymph fluid.


I don't know the anatomy of this so well... Just some recent theories based on that article that was posted previously.

By the way, this reminds me. I work with a girl on Fridays. She's quiet, kind of shy, odd person. Her breath has always been rank of that specific Tonsil Stone smell... Poor girl. Wonder if she knows though. She doesn't look as paranoid as I do. Hah, I guess I should feel worse for the students, what with the pair of teachers they have. I wonder if she still has her tonsils, or if it could be something else.... I wonder if she stresses about it.. I wonder if she has a routine that doesn't work... Or perhaps, if she has no idea, therefore, isn't putting much effort into tidying up her mouth extra well. Anyway, that's not oral neglect, but I wonder if having that tonsil stone smell could be kept at bay with extra simple oral hygiene.

[halitosisux]

Mike, I'm convinced that tonsil stones occur purely when there are high levels of bacterial activity on the rear of the tongue. As the tongue moves around and brushes against the tonsils and the entrance to the crypts, a near constant stream of tongue stench and debris pushes itself into the crypts where it gradually forms into a concentrated mass of whatever skank was sitting on the tongue.

The thing that makes me so certain of this is the fact that my foul gum discharge was on my right side, and it was always my right tonsil which was always very noticably more foul smelling and which produced the biggest stones.

Your doctor is probably right about being thin allows you to become more aware of your lymph glands.

I think if lymph had anything to do with bad breath then everyone would have bad breath, especially when someone has an infection of some kind which causes the lymph nodes to swell - and we all know this isn't the case.

I think in your case, you either have some kind of metabolic issue which is either TMAU related or something very similar, or you have something going on in your nose, which causes your throat and tongue to smell and taste bad, which then leads you to having tonsil stones (while you still had your tonsils). This might explain how you develop that horrible taste again so soon after nukeing your mouth.

[dolittle]

**Update** My paper was accepted for publication, =)

This is the one on the new blood borne halitosis metabolic condition, I will provide a link once it is on PubMed.

The ENT causes of halitosis paper is about 2/3 done...I will be able to spend more time on this project in a few weeks, got a lot on atm.

I have also started a "malodor condition wiki" http://ddxfetor.wikinet.org/wiki/Main_Page
which I am hoping to turn into the main evidence base available on the internet for all malodor conditions.

It is pretty empty currently, but please feel free to create a free account (like you would do for wikipedia) and contribute. This is a good place to reference scientific papers from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=halitosis

From my past publications, I know there can be a delay before the paper is on pubmed, so I might be another few weeks before I can post the link.

Take care

P.s. Deebo, sorry for not replying before, never read your msg

[dolittle]

By condensing, I mean pool of foul-smelling liquid/mucus at the back of the tongue and throat area produced by the breeding ground of bacteria present there, and as a person breathes out and these liquids evaporate, the vapour condenses onto the linings in the nasal cavity and in some cases may be pooling up, perhaps even calcifying etc in some of the crevices, in the same way that tonsil stones might be formed.

This is purely a concept, based on what I read many years ago, that tonsil stones are formed in this way from the VSCs in the mouth as they evaporate and condense in crevices.

Hi Halitosisux,
you can get calcifications in the nasal cavity, similar to tonsil stones. they are called rhinoliths. I think the formation of these calcifications is more to do with build up of debris which gets calcified, just like calculus on the teeth. I think VSCs are a byproduct of the bacterial activity that are associated with the stone (remember the living biofilm paper?), rather than the cause of the stone itself.

Gooner said his nasal BB diminished by blocking his nose during sleep and preventing the air flowing outwards. So this made me wonder how that could be possible, since you would normally expect odourous/infected situations in the nose to worsen with less aspiration.

a spaceous nasal cavity can create too much airflow and consequntly dries out the nasal mucosa. THis can lead to drying of secretions and crusting, secondary atrophic rhinitis would be an example of this process. In this conditon, if the airflow through the nose is reduced, this reduces the drying and hence the malodor.

Also, having read every single post on this forum since 2008, it appears to be the case that just about every person who suffers with nasal odours developed this some time after they became aware that they had bad breath from the mouth. Not vice-versa.

Thats v interesting...I can't explain that easily. Maybe their understanding of their symptom gets better, rather than the symptom changing?

When a person knows they've had bad breath at some point in their life, the fears never go. The same demons of negativity which allowed it to ever become an issue in the first place never go away. I think I will always be halitophobic (fear that my breath may smell bad, as opposed to a certainty that my breath must smell bad).

You have great insight into halitophobia, I especially thought about the "pre halitosis issues" comment. I think you could change your mindset regarding this fear, through hypnosis and cognative behavioural therapy. And time heals all as they say.

I find it so frustrating that people can get any kind of NHS help where a medical problem can cause psychological suffering and impairment. Bad breath is the worst nightmare imaginable, not just because of the way it eats into everything that makes a person human, but because of the despair when facing a world that thinks this problem is easy to deal with, when the reality for many is the complete opposite.

Often I feel like this too, but i suppose there are much worse medical conditions to have

I'm convinced that tonsil stones occur purely when there are high levels of bacterial activity on the rear of the tongue. As the tongue moves around and brushes against the tonsils and the entrance to the crypts, a near constant stream of tongue stench and debris pushes itself into the crypts where it gradually forms into a concentrated mass of whatever skank was sitting on the tongue.

Intersting theory...I think the research suggests obstruction of the outflow secondary to inflammation rather than debris being pushed into the crypt system.

hi Mike,

Someone had posted something quite detailed about Tonsils and their role in flushing the endocrine system, somewhat recently.
I don't know about anyone else who had tonsil stones, but my lymphatic glands all over my body always seem a little large, as if the body is constantly fighting an infection (allergies? Low immunity related?). The ones near my crotch area are very easy to feel out.

But, is it also possible that there's a constant leakage of lymph fluid through the various tonsils, and that overactive lymphatic systems have to work extra hard to empty more than the usual amount of infections in the body? That perhaps such fluid is pooling in our crypts, constantly draining from our adenoid tonsils near the sinuses, and causing a feeding frenzy of bacteria?

I'm not too hot on endocrinology, sorry...

But if you look at how tonsils stones form, by obstruction of the drainage of the crypt system, by factors that occlude the crypts...

Inflammation (tonsillitis) is the main factor in leading to obstruction of this drainage, and also would probably lead to increased flow of secretions from the tonsils. You might have some kind of allergy if all your glands are up. Tonsils themselves are lymph nodes/glands, so perhaps general lymphadenitis is linked to the same reason you had the chronic tonsillitis that caused formation of the stones. It is intersting to read that children seem to have worsening of psoriasis after tonsilectomy. This is an autoimmune skin conditon. It is probably more evidence that the tonsils are a sampling center for the immune system to monitor what antigens are present in the mouth and enterring the aerodigestive tracts.

I don't have that tonsil stone taste anymore after having the tonsillectomy... But I do have a strange, almost acid taste, that seems to occur within my saliva, very often, not even 10 min. after brushing, gargling, etc... What are the bacteria feeding on? And what bacteria, after nuking my mouth with a complex regime? What if I'm tasting the result of the excreted lymph, and either that alone can cause odors, or that kick starts struggling bacteria back into play?

you may just be having a funny taste from "nuking" (not sure what chemicals etc invovled here). Also worth remembering taste does not usually equal smell that other can detect.

I still have my adenoid tonsils, and I have to wonder if even the closed off remains of the tonsils have some pores, or some welling of toxic lymph fluid.

You won't have anything left of the adenoid by your age, it is only noticeable tissue in children really, then it shrinks right down.
I too did worry about not removing the whole tonsil crypt system, i had mine removed whole. I read in one textbook that in children they can grow back if they are only partially removed. I will quote from my paper:

"Detailed study of the pathogenesis of tonsillolith formation makes complete removal of the tonsillar crypt system theoretically favorable over resurfacing (tonsilotomy), which may increase stenosis of crypt orifi, further predisposing to impaired drainage of secretions, stagnation and stasis."

... but this is just speculation really. There are several papers published that show the various types of partial tonsil removal are effective at curing halitosis related to bad breath. I will have to reword this part of the paper actually with these other references I later found.

By the way, this reminds me. I work with a girl on Fridays. She's quiet, kind of shy, odd person. Her breath has always been rank of that specific Tonsil Stone smell... Poor girl. Wonder if she knows though. She doesn't look as paranoid as I do. Hah, I guess I should feel worse for the students, what with the pair of teachers they have. I wonder if she still has her tonsils, or if it could be something else.... I wonder if she stresses about it.. I wonder if she has a routine that doesn't work... Or perhaps, if she has no idea, therefore, isn't putting much effort into tidying up her mouth extra well. Anyway, that's not oral neglect, but I wonder if having that tonsil stone smell could be kept at bay with extra simple oral hygiene.

I would want to tell her (not sure if I would be brave enough to though, probably I would)... but be sensitive etc

[Gooner]

Thanks for coming back to update us, im looking forward to reading your paper. Ive not felt up to posting on the site for a while until seeing your post, it seems other forum members are the same recently, this condition is so draining, we all seem to be losing hope.

Im having an endoscopy done in a few weeks after requesting it from my GP. Another shot in the dark....this is just neverending.

[halitosisux]

dolittle, thanks for your views, they always get me thinking. Congratulations also on your publication acceptance.

Yes you are probably right about the formation of tonsil stones out of debris and that their odour being purely down to bacterial activity.

Do rhinoliths smell the same as tonsilloliths?

It would be intestesting if someone could build a model of a head, and build a similar biohabitat to the tongue for example. Nutrients could be fed to feed this biohabitat, such as artificial saliva and post nasal drainage. I wonder what would happen or what it could tell us?

I know this seems very simplistic, but "externally" with the human body things may not be as complex as we may think they are. Colonies of bacteria will form in the most simple of habitats. Pungent odour forms in certain types of cheeses for example, not because of randomness or things being left to chance, but because specific habitats and processes were introduced into the manufacturing.

If a well-made model head could be produced and similar bacteria to a human mouth begin to colonize, because similar conditions have been setup to allow them to, then a lot could be learned from this. For instance, the depth of tongue papillae, or the effect of varying the rate of post nasal drainage, or the amount of protein or the thickness of this drainage could be varied. There are so many factors, but maybe it only takes one simple abnormal fluctuation to give rise to stench production on the back of the tongue.