Bad Breath Halitosis Forum

Everyone has a certain amount of tongue coating. If a person dehydrates or isnt eating, the coating builds up and becomes more noticeable.

I didnt say that tongue coating is only dead cells, I tried to explain these dead cells are also in the constant process of being decomposed by the microflora of the mouth (which includes bacteria and fungi) and by immune system constituents contained in saliva. People who excessively scrape their tongues damage the blood-filled part of the papillae and these microorganisms probably get into these damaged tissues and make them swell and appear white. Infact keratin, the same substance as your finger nails, are what these cells at the tips of the papillae are made of.

I also tried scraping away tongue coating and collecting it into a small plastic dish and could hardly detect any odour from it. This was when I still had the tooth in and my tongue stank of crap. But that doesnt mean to say the coating isnt acting like sponge when its sitting on your tongue allowing the odourous chemicals to build up there. But yes, I agree, its not like a lump of tonsil stone that you can hold up to your nose and crush it and smell that really pungent mothball/cowshit type of odour.

Fungi including candida do live harmlessly in the mouth. Do some searches. Why would that any more dangerous than bacteria that live harmlessly in the body too, but given the chance they can be just as harmful as any fungi.

halitosisux wrote:Lol, bless your sole..

Now I was convinced I had athlete's foot, so just incase it might have anything at all to do with being a cause of my BB, I bought some standard antifungal cream and started using it on my feet. I was really surprised to see an instant unmistakeable improvement to my BB for a number of days. I attribute now to a similar experience that someone else on this forum had when they put antifungal cream on their chest. I think it absorbs through the skin and results in reducing the fungus in the mouth.

Anyway, no, I meant "if it IS parasites in your gut". If you have parasites in your body, whether its in your internal systems such as your internal organs, or in your external systems such as the gut, your immune system is constantly working to defend against them. It's therefore a possibility that when you are feeling run down and your defenses are weakened (such as the onset of a cold) these parasites may gain in their strength and in their ability to affect you, resulting in worsened symptoms, like your bubble guts. Its just a thought though. Stress is another factor which has been proven to weaken the body's defenses.

So you dont get any odours from your tongue? Where do you think its coming from in your case?

BTW, it is known that TMAU can result or be affected by hormonal changes that can take place. If I remember correctly, a lot of women with TMAU say that it worsens during menstruation. That may relate to hormones, but there are other possible reasons too.

I dont know of anyone who has reported that they've taken a TMAU test on this forum except for malory, who came back positive. Caramiamine also has TMAU, but I dont know whether this has been confirmed by tests or not.

Caramiamine has loads of good useful information on TMAU if you search the forum.

Hi halitosisux,
My apologies for this delayed response; I think I inadvertently turned the "watch" off for this thread. Lots going on here. In any event I'm THRILLED to see such serious scientific inquiry into the root causes.

Regarding the relief you experienced with anti-fungal cream...My tongue coating could very well be the cause. I don't know. When I try to smell it, I don't smell anything though. Really my belief that it's coming from my lungs or guts is just a general feeling that I can't explain. I feel like if I open my mouth and hold my breath, no one can smell my tongue or anything else but if I laugh, talk or sigh the odor is strong.

I do know that early in life I was taking an AWFUL lot of antibiotics probably for the parasites first and then for the cystic acne and boils that I had as a teen. I wonder about the effects of this too.

Thank you for bringing Malory's story to my attention. In reading her various posts I see so many parallels between our stories.

It's interesting to me that I've read somewhere that it's mostly women that TMAU affects. The vast majority of bad breath I've smelled from others has almost always come from men. I call it "hot" breath. It doesn't stink up a room but lord help us if someone laughs too hard with it. It's usually the exact same kind of smell too. Hot and poopy. I imagine that this is what mine is probably like to others.

Interestingly, I worked in a place where teenagers would come to receive social services/tutoring and there was this one poor girl whose breath I know is worse than mine. The poor thing would stand in the doorway of my office and not come any closer than that. She would speak in a meek, mild manner and VOOM! Out of nowhere there it was. None of the other people there or the other students ever mentioned her breath. It was soooo bad and she was so quiet and unassuming because of it that even her peers did not tease her about it. I don't think I had ever seen that child laugh or smile in the many years I knew her.

The one TMAU testing place has some other studies one can participate in (related to taste) and I will go there for that hopefully and try to get more TMAU info...maybe lean over the receptionist's desk and say in a breathy manner, "Heeeeeeeyy, do you think I miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight qualifyyyyyyy for the TMAUUUUUUUU testiiiiiiiiiing?" hahaha

Halitosisux,

"I didn't say that tongue coating is only dead cells, I tried to explain these dead cells are also in the constant process of being decomposed by the microflora of the mouth (which includes bacteria and fungi) and by immune system constituents contained in saliva. People who excessively scrape their tongues damage the blood-filled part of the papillae and these microorganisms probably get into these damaged tissues and make them swell and appear white. Infact keratin, the same substance as your finger nails, are what these cells at the tips of the papillae are made of."

The entire above paragraph in your last post cannot be correct. If it were correct, every last human being on earth would have to have a white tongue and bad breath. We know that that is not the case.
If there is keratin in the tongue papillae, then it is probably at the cellular level. The keratin in hair and fingernails is dead tissue. Otherwise we would be screaming when we get a haircut or trim our nails. The tips of the papillae are very much alive because they contain nerve endings. How else could we taste the food? So that is not the same. I also don't think that the papillae shed parts of themselves that are decomposing in the mouth. If a few cells came loose, they would be washed away by food and saliva and wind up in the stomach. Furthermore, it is not any damaged tissue on the tongue that is swolen and appears white. It is the coating on the tongue that is white. Many people don't even scrape the tongue, but still have a white coating.
In addition to that, I would like to see some evidence that everybody has fungi living in their mouths. And even if they do, then why doesn't everybody have bad breath. So you see, Halitosisux, I cannot accept that whole paragraph. There has to be some serious rethinking. And mainly there have to be OTHER explanations.

Phantasist,
What I said makes sense to me, but that doesnt mean to say its right or wrong. I've tried to stick to known facts and try to make pieces of the jig-saw fit together. I dont have any scientific background, so my explanations are only ever going to be simplistic ones. That's just the way it is, we're not scientists so all we can do is try to use our logic and try to make sense of what is already known, because the unknowns of this problem are likely to remain that way for as for as long as there are people and companies out there who want to protect this multi-billion dollar fresh breath industry.

As we've said before, some people have coated tongues, but no bad breath. Some people only have BB when their tongue is coated. Some people have a mouth full of rotten teeth but no bad breath, some people have minor dental problems and they end up with bad breath. Some people can wake up and not brush their teeth and their breath doesnt smell. Some people never have bad breath but if they dont brush their teeth for one day their breath smells.

We're all different. Every person's unique oral ecology, bacterial profile, chemistry and immune system is a unique set of factors that can combine to cause the type-1 BB we're discussing about.

If you have fully understood the explanations I've tried to make, then you'll understand that it does not mean that every last human on Earth would have to have a white tongue and bad breath.

Yes, the keratin is at the cellular level. When you mention the tips of the papillae being alive, it depends on whether you are referring to the blood-filled part containing nerve endings or the dead part. Also, it's our taste buds which sense basic tastes, not our papillae. The taste buds can only sense liquified material, that's why they are nestled where they are on the tongue surface.

I dont know what sort of evidence you need to see to accept that fungi are a normal part of any microbial flora in the body.

I would like to hear any other explanations you may have on all of this too.

BreathofLife, thanks for your reply and good luck with your TMAU research and tests.