Bad Breath Halitosis Forum

Larc,

From what has been reported, the baking soda increases the mucus solubility (beyond using salt water alone), thus decreasing the viscosity to flush mucus more effectively. From my results I think this is true. The salt and baking soda combination is a good solvent.

The amount of material I am now using each morning is a solution of:

warm water slightly above body temperature = 600 milliliters
table salt = 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon
baking soda = 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon
alum (optional) = 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon

The solution should be non-irritating in the nose. Too little salt concentration, or too much salt concentration, can irritate.

I gently flood the entire nasal cavity, front to back, and expel it orally. Then, immediately after the nasal irrigation, I gently, yet fully, blow my nose to empty any remaining solution. It works very well.

Thanks Searching

yes, promising results... my mucous is extremely sticky... glue-like... so anything that can loosen it up a bit might be a winner. Wonder *why* it's so sticky though. I really feel like I'd need to irrigate every hour or so to get some flow... Do you have any theories re: the underlying cause..?

Larc,

Great! Please keep me posted. I hope you can master the Stage 2 Nasal Irrigation technique. I'm hoping for feedback from someone who will give this method a fair trial.

Underlying cause of viscous PND mucus? That is a good question. I'm not certain of the answer; however, we know that normal, healthy people have normal mucus versus people with Cystic Fibrosis who have thick, elastic mucus. Perhaps people with bb caused by PND have mucus composition and viscosity somewhere in-between.

I've read that when mucus travels through the body, to its destination, it associates with divalent cations, e.g. Ca++ which helps to compact the mucus volume for effective delivery to the mucus membranes. It then undergoes an ion exchange with monovalent ions, e.g. Na+ and the mucus swells as much as 600X in volume and becomes much less viscous to allow good coverage and protection of the tissue it coats. Perhaps people with bb caused by poor-flowing PND have low sodium delivery within their sinuses and the mucus viscosity remains high, or, the mucus is a higher molecular weight versus the normal composition which slows flow.

At this time I'm managing the symptom of bb with Stage 2 nasal irrigation using a sufficient amount (0.6 to 1 liter) of monovalent saline solution to get a clean start each morning.

Good info... I'll look it up some more (PubMed etc ). I guess adding sodium ions is exactly what we're doing with the saline rinse...

Wish we could think of a permanent solution to make it less viscous... ...I always thought it was mainly my saliva that was sticky, but maybe the PND plays a part. As for the saliva itself being sticky, could it be some malfunction with our salivary glands (ie a lack of the serous type)?

Yes, how does one master that 2nd stage irrigation? How do you prevent the cough reflex that kicks in when inhaling water with head tilted back? Do you basically just do it very slowly?

Larc,

I think mastering the Stage 2 irrigation is key, i.e. in through nose out by mouth. It cleanses more thoroughly versus Stage 1, i.e. in one nostril out the other.

Yes, delivering the saline solution slowly is important. When the solution slowly enters the nostril, your throat must be closed to prevent swallowing or inhalation. Then create an oral vacuum as though you are drinking through a straw, albeit with your mouth closed. This allows the saline solution to slowly fill the nasal cavity and overflow into your mouth motivated by the slight suction, i.e. oral vacuum, you have created. Then, momentarily stop sending the saline and orally expel what has entered your mouth. Breathe, and then repeat the steps until all the solution is used, alternating from one nostril to the other.

Disgusting, yes? Yet effective.

Love my neti pot

hi searching-thanks for sharing the info. do you do it only once a day? do you believe that the rinse has gotten rid of your bb?

you have mentioned the pepto-bismol in the past. are you still taking them?
and if you don't mind, could you describe your symptoms, type of odor etc.? sounds like you had sinus issues-but what about digestive ones?

i've been rinsing my sinuses as well, but it hasn't gotten rid of my bb. i haven't been doing it as much as you-only about 16 oz of water. and i did do the stage 2 thing, but i end up swallowing a lot of the water-that can't be good. i'll use your idea of closing my throat next time.

i'm glad you've found relief. i'll try a little harder, but i doubt this is it for me tho', unfortunately...

Waitingforrelief,

I do the nasal irrigation once daily in the morning after brushing and flossing.

I believe it has managed to dramatically reduce my bb.

Professionals have advised us to brush the tongue as far back as possible to help control bb. That is the precise location where PND enters and deposits orally. Thus, immediately after we brush the tongue, feeding the embedded oral bacteria, in the tongue, tonsils, and throat, resumes and bb reintensifies. For me, thorough, Stage 2 Nasal Irrigation decreases the bb raw material coming from the sinuses, and postpones the return of bb, until the sinuses refill and overflow into the throat with mucus.

I have essentially eliminated the use of Pepto-Bismol, as the nasal irrigation seems to be a more-effective remedy. The Pepto-Bismol was absorbing the resulting VSC's, whereas the nasal irrigation seems to be reducing, or eliminating, the raw material that was bacterially-transformed to VSCs.

The type of bb I wrestled with was of the tonsil-stone variety. I had a sour taste in my mouth that tooth and tongue brushing alone could reduce, but not eliminate. I now believe the oral bb was fed by this steady, low-flow stream of PND.

I have no unusual digestive issue that I am aware of; however, there is a widely varied consortium of microoganisms in my gut that feast on the excess food that my body cannot ordinarily handle. The Pepto-Bismol did help with that.

I'm finding that 20 ounces of Stage 2 nasal irrigation is working for me. I am sending all 20 ounces in through nose, out by mouth, with very little leakage escaping by nose. It is a 1 to 2 minute process in the shower using a plastic squeeze bottle with a tip that snugly and comfortably fits in the nostril. For me, this seems to be the minimum volume that is effective. Any less volume would not fully empty what accumulates overnight. Salt and baking soda, in solution, appears essential to both dissolve mucus and prevent irritation.

I struggled somewhat with the technique when I first tried the Stage 2 irrigation; however, the favorable result fortified my drive. Now, for me, it is a simple excercise. If you find that this method helps eliminate your bb, rest assured that the technique will become very simple with practice.

Dear Searching,
just a petty practical question: does your squeeze bottle hold the entire load, or do you have to re-fill it a few times during the procedure? Also, where can I get a similar squeeze bottle ? I'm currently using a syringe which fits snugly but only holds 60ml... so it becomes kind of tedious re-filling it 10 times or more

Many thanks.

Larc,

My bottle holds the entire 600 milliliters in a single fill, and I use the full volume each morning.

These are the kinds of plastic squeeze bottles, with recloseable screw top caps, that ketchup, mustard, shampoo, dishwashing liquid, etc. are bottled in. The cap's tip shape and dimension are important as this is what is contacting the nostril. I have placed a rubber eyedropper bulb over the stem of my bottle's stem cap after first cutting a small hole in the eyedropper bulb tip.

As you walk through a supermarket or grocery store be on the lookout for a food that is packaged in a bottle that can later serve the purpose. Perhaps such a container is already in your home. A transparent or translucent container is more convenient than opaque.

Obviously the container needs to be thoroughly cleansed of its original material for safety.

searching-

hmm i'm a little confused now. you said you use 1 liter everyday but 20 ounces for stage 2 rinse. does it mean you use the rest of it for stage 1 regular sinus rinse?

do you think it's important to do it AFter brushing? i usually do it before, but will reverse the order and see.

and re the 20 ounces, you distribute them between the two sides of the nose or 20 ounces for each nostril? and it almost sounds like you are doing it thru' a continuous stream while the water comes out of your mouth... is that right? i always have to do little spurts of water at a time.

and re larc's question-i actually have a 64 oz neilmed bottle. i used it a few times but found that it was too big to have enough pressure to get the water up my nose for some reason. so i switched back to the 32 oz neilmed bottle.

and that's what i use-i also use the solution that they already have premixed. i've experimented with making my own solution before. but the neilmed (also contains salt and baking soda) has been the most comfortable, not to mention easy.

"I have no unusual digestive issue that I am aware of; however, there is a widely varied consortium of microoganisms in my gut that feast on the excess food that my body cannot ordinarily handle. The Pepto-Bismol did help with that. "

im curious, how did you come to the above conclusion?

Waiting for relief,

Sorry for the confusion.

I perform Stage 2 nasal irrigation, once daily in the morning after brushing and flossing. The total volume of solution I use is between 20 and 32 ounces, i.e. between 600 and 1000 milliliters, equally divided among both sides of the nose. Lately I've been using 20 ounces = 600 milliliters total, once daily.

I admit a little solution at a time, into the nose then expel orally - and I repeat this sequence until all of the solution is used. It is not a continuous stream, but rather small batches in then out.

I do not think the order of brushing and irrigation makes a big difference.

I tilt my head backward so that I am looking upward, and I raise the solution squeeze bottle so that its outlet is pointing downward as though it is a water bottle that I am drinking from. My bottle can be slowly emptied by turning it upside down, into the nose, and squeezing it to pump the solution out.

I came to the conclusion that I have no unusual digestive issues based on a physical feeling of general well-being with essentially no more, or less, gastric complaints versus others around me.

Best wishes. I'm off on business for the next few days.

I also use a half cap full of store brand hydrogen peroxide in my daily nasal rinse (Neilmed) which has reduce the BB some what as people stand 3 feet away from me now instead of 6. I'm just starting the 2nd stage rinse, and after 3 tries (I keep swallowing the mixture) it seems to provide immediate relief (day 2). I will keep trying this, and see if it can last longer than the normal 2 week period before the BB is able to reject it.

Searching in your experience how much time does it take for the BB to comeback after using this method?

I tried 2 pepto bismol tablets, once a week (mondays) for the last 4 weeks and at this point, I can say that there is a small difference. Less fecal smell, and less bloated feel in the AM. Not quite ready to step up the dosage, but I'd be curious to hear other reactions about that.

Also, I think I read somewhere that the salt should not be table salt, it should be sea salt without iodine.

I am wondering if there is a way to do this in a small scale in the workplace restroom with a small bottle, after lunch too. Maybe 3 times is the charm.

I was also doing the peptobismal tablets for a few weeks.

I really can't say it helped me one way or another. In theory it makes sense, but our problem is so misunderstood that we might be on the wrong track completely?


Sulfur itself doesn't have a smell... It's hydrogen sulfide that gives off the rotten eggs / sewer smell. Would pepto bismal have any effect on that?




I tried using the neti pot in the shower last night. I tilted my head back like you instructed.. Didn't really notice anything different in the mucus coming out.. I also gagged, swallowed, and threw up a little trying to expel that stuff :p
Today though, I felt like I didn't have as bad as breath. I could barely detect it myself and it even seems difficult to detect now (and it usually becomes much worse by late night). It's entirely possible though that my sinuses are just bad and I can't smell very well today.. I didn't get any obvious reactions, but I could have sworn my friend's girlfriend asked him if he farted, moments after I openly said 2 or 3 words in their direction...

Who knows.. wouldn't hurt trying it again tonight though.