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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:28 pm
by TeamZissou
The timing is pretty interesting to me as well. I've been trying to figure out exactly what that means. If some of the bacteria were resistant to the antibiotic, then shouldn't the BB begin to return before the treatment is over, as the resistant bacteria begin to reproduce and take over? Why would it return exactly when the medication is stopped? If the bacteria can reproduce so quickly after the antibiotic is stopped that an odor returns in one day, surely it would return before a week if resistant bacteria were present and multiplying.
Obviously I can't be sure, but my guess is that it isn't necessarily resistant, it just wasn't all killed off for some reason. Or it was reintroduced somehow after it was stopped.
The real question is, how is the mouth repopulated with bacteria after the antibioitics are over? If the antibiotic kills them all off, where do they come from? Just from daily living and eating?
Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:55 pm
by halitosisux
I recently posted a possible explanation for this.
Firstly, i dont know whether such an antibiotic such as metronidazole would wipe out every type of oral bacteria or what implications this might have it it didnt.
Secondly, i dont know whether you have read another of my postings this evening in "a thought" thread. I mention the role of the body's immune system in potentially determining our oral bacterial composition.
Last of all, i think that our oral bacteria may be hiding in places that either antibiotics cannot effectively deal with (such as the sinuses maybe?) OR because of the fact the bacteria are hiding in such places, the antibiotics due the manner in which they function, either lose their potency or they are not taken for long enough to fully eradicate in these areas.
This theory may also explain why BB returns worse than before, because the bacteria which managed to remain are the strongest (as occurs in certain diseases)
It just feels too much of a coincidence that within 24 hours the same germs have happened to be reintroduced from the outside.
Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:11 pm
by TeamZissou
Yes I agree it is too much of a coincidence that they were reintroduced, although I still think it is important to change toothbrushes and glasses very often while taking the medication, to rule that out.
About the immune system, I just don't think it controls bacteria populations to that great of a degree. The mouth and intestines are technically "outside" the body. I understand that IgA patrols mucosal surfaces to some degree, but I think that is more to avoid infections than to control which populations do and do not inhabit the surface.
For example, the bacteria that causes strep throat is chronically present in the throats of a certain percentage (i forgot the percentage) of people on a daily basis, even if they don't have an active infection. Since we know that the immune system fights these bacteria if there is an infection, it seems to me that perhaps they are simply "out of reach" to be totally irradicated and are just in a dormant state. The same is true of E. Coli in the large intestine. The body will fight it off if it invades body tissue, but it doesn't do that in the large intestine, where it serves a useful purpose without causing damage.
I'm not entirely sure, but I think bacteria can exist in the mouth and intestines without actually being "in" your body and in contact with the immune system, so to speak.
Most people here seem to have relatively healthy immune systems. And severly immunocompromised people who have say AIDS or are on cancer drugs don't usually get bad breath.
Have you had your IgA levels tested?
Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:30 pm
by halitosisux
I am really pleased to hear you say this.
We therefore need to be certain that there are no obvious anaerobic location which might be responsible for re-introducing these unwanted bacteria such as gum pockets and teeth which im hopefully going to have dealt with next week. We need to carefully choose combinations of antibiotics that have the best chance of eradicating the bacteria in all anaerobic area. And select the best possible system of reintroducing the bacteria that are present in normal healthy mouths.
I've never had my IgA tested, which as you described, could be fundamentally important.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:55 am
by TeamZissou
This is a section of an article on h. pylori treatment that I think applies well to BB bacteria:
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20020401/1327.html
"Antimicrobial resistance and incomplete treatment are major reasons for treatment failure. The treatment of H. pylori infection can be likened to the treatment of tuberculosis because multidrug regimens and an adequate length of treatment are needed to eradicate the organism. Because of the lengthy period of therapy, convenience and tolerability become important considerations in choosing a treatment plan. While success with shorter durations of treatment has been reported, continued therapy for 14 days is the most reliable and effective regimen and is recommended in the United States."
"Table 4 provides a practical list of selected effective drug combinations used for treating patients with H. pylori infection. Only triple and quadruple therapies with reported eradication rates approaching 90 percent or more are included. Single and dual drug therapies have unacceptably low cure rates and are not recommended."
"Antibiotics. Amoxicillin, a semi-synthetic penicillin, is an effective antibiotic for H. pylori infection. The frequency of amoxicillin-resistant H. pylori organisms is low. The drug rapidly accumulates in antral mucosa via systemic circulation. Its antimicrobial activity against H. pylori depends on the pH level; the minimal inhibitory concentration (MIC) decreases as the pH increases.29 Clarithromycin is also quite effective, although more resistant organisms are emerging.30
Co-administration with a PPI significantly increases the concentration of clarithromycin in the antral mucosa and the mucus layer. Erythromycin and azithromycin are much less effective macrolides in vivo and should not be used in H. pylori treatment.31 Metronidazole is active against H. pylori, and its bioavailability is not influenced by acid suppression; however, resistance to metronidazole is high.31 Furazolidone has been described as an alternative to metronidazole in resistant cases but, as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, it may be associated with food and drug interactions.31"
Sorry this was so long. I found the bolded part about the PPI very interesting. I know they are referring to the stomach, but maybe the success of drugs in the mouth is also dependent on other factors as well.
But anyways, it sounds like Metronidazole is a given starting point, given the success some have had with it.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:24 am
by halitosisux
Yes, and this is the reason why im concerned that antibiotic potency in different areas of the body may vary. I know it probably isnt very likely, but assuming that oral bacteria are able to hide in the sinuses (sneezing could force them up there every single time we sneeze) antibiotic therapy which works in the mouth due to secreted saliva might not work as effectively in other areas as they do in the mouth.
Also look at the treatment duration of 14 days for HP, and yet in the mouth the metronidazole work within a matter of hours. Whenever i've known of antibiotic courses its for 3 or 5 days. It just goes to show how important duration is.
"Antimicrobial resistance and incomplete treatment are major reasons for treatment failure. The treatment of H. pylori infection can be likened to the treatment of tuberculosis because multidrug regimens and an adequate length of treatment are needed to eradicate the organism"
I think that as long as we are taking probiotics at the same time we could safely take 30 days of metronidazole (and whatever else we decide on) providing there are no other side effects, such as with the liver.
Also my interpretation so far is that unless we are trying to eradicate H pylori, a PPI will make no difference to what we are trying to achieve, but we still need to research into this.
"Metronidazole is active against H. pylori, and its bioavailability is not influenced by acid suppression"
I was just reading about a treatment where antibiotics are used in sections of the intestines in order to sterilize and then repopulate them using probiotics. If that can be done down there, then why not in the mouth.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:45 am
by TeamZissou
http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/ ... cs-no-help
Found this article on Google suggesting that antibiotics aren't necessarily effective against sinus infections.
This is why I think it's so important to do significant exercise and drink large amounts of water during the treatment, to promote the flow of body fluids and lymph. Doing nasal washes twice a day during this time to clean out the area as much as possible is probably a good idea as well. Using an over the counter spray like Afrin, to increase activity in the area even further, might not be a bad idea.
It might just be that antibiotics aren't very effective in this area. Something else needs to be done to help it along. This is all assuming the bacteria are even in the sinuses. I don't have sinus pain or anything like that. But it does seem quite possible.
How long were you on the Metronidazole when you took it alone? It doesn't sound like one week is enough. But you said you were on the two antibiotics for two weeks?
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:32 am
by asd
lots of good stuff here. I feel this is an area we should look at. The problem is likely bacterial, and we have weapons against that.
The returning of the oral bacteria to me could mean 2 things.
Firstly, the course was taken long enough. Therefore the bad bacteria was not completel wiped out, and it quickly repopulates after the antibiotic is gone.
Secondly, the bacteria is hiding somewhere that the antibiotics cant get to. Therefore when the antibiotics are stopped this surviving bacteria repopulates the mouth.
So, if we tried to treat BB like this, we need a long course of antibiotics, 3 weeks of multiple varieties. This may seem extreme, but I dont want to screw around. Also I think the gums could be a good hiding place, so maybe we would want a specialised antibiotic for oral use. This could be one of the drugs taken.
If the antibiotics were taken, we would need to try and repopulate the mouth ourselves. An oral probiotic would be ideal.
Another vital facto is the selection of antibiotics. It would be preferable to have 2 or 3 different anaerobic antibiotics. Im not even sure if three types are readily available. But we would want to avoid general use antibiotics.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:46 am
by asd
just a thought, what if we just got infected? from kissing or something.
It could be that some can carry small amounts of the bacteria but they dont overgrow. We are sucseptible or were at the time and simply caught it like an infection.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:07 am
by TeamZissou
Thanks for adding to the discussion asd.
I agree that the bacteria are probably hiding somewhere, and it is very important to get it all. Adding in an antibacterial mouthwash while taking the oral antibiotics may be a good idea as well. Possibly even dipping dental floss into it to make sure it gets into the gums and between the teeth.
Edit: I just read the sticky about chlorhexidine. I was gonna suggest that, but not after reading what people had to say about it. Maybe plain old Listerine would work.
As far as the oral antibiotics, Metronidazole and Clarithromycin seem like a good place to start the discussion, as Metronidazole has resulted in full and temporary cures, and Clarithromycin targets bacteria specific to the mouth and nasal areas.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:31 am
by iva
asd wrote:just a thought, what if we just got infected? from kissing or something.
It could be that some can carry small amounts of the bacteria but they dont overgrow. We are sucseptible or were at the time and simply caught it like an infection.
I agree that we are susceptible to some bacteria, while others may carry the same bacteria and not become infected. Like the helicobacter pylori, some people may have it and not become ill, just carry it, while othres become infected instantly..
http://www.helico.com/case_study-01-halitosis_and_hpylori.ht
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:23 pm
by girlie girl
A very interesting case study...
HALITOSIS AND HELICOBACTER PYLORI : A CASE STUDY
Authors: Martin Atkinson-Barr, Ph.D., Barry J. Marshall, M.D.
We report a case study of a patient with chronic halitosis of > 60yrs duration that was resistant to all traditional therapies but was resolved following triple-therapy for Helicobacter pylori.
Introduction
The causal relationship between Helicobacter pylori and upper gastrointestinal disease is now well established and published guidelines call for antimicrobials as first line therapy for ulcer patients (1). An early study by one of the authors reported on the symptomatic infection following ingestion of H. pylori (2) and one study has suggested that the disease may progress from an acute symptomatic phase to an asymptomatic infection with concomitant chronic gastritis (3). It was noted that the acute stage of infection was accompanied by fatigue, nausea, vomiting and bloating and that a family member reported that the subject had developed malodorous breath. Since then other authors have reported an apparent benefit when patients with halitosis have been treated for H. pylori(4,5).
Here we report on a case of chronic halitosis which was refractory to normal treatments. The patient was strongly seropositive for H. pylori and treatment was initiated with triple therapy which resolved the infection and the halitosis.
Case Report
A very active non-smoking 76-year-old Caucasian woman of normal physique and living in Southern California presented with a 60-year history of halitosis. In the last ten years she reports some problem with gastro-esophageal reflux and a case of aggressively treated laryngitis in 1970 lead to dysphonia. In recent years she has experienced some age-onset diabetes. There is no history of peptic ulcer disease or dyspepsia.
She has clear memories from age 16 of her mother instructing her to improve her dental hygiene to eliminate the odor. She reported that the foul breath makes her social relationships difficult, particularly with her grandchildren, and she remembers that her husband had told her that it was of little use to repeatedly cleanse her teeth when the problem appeared to be coming from lower in the digestive system.
Over a period of many years she had sought an effective treatment for the halitosis from a number of dentists and in spite of fastidious care and frequent dental visits the problem continued. She does, however, enjoy enviable dentition with no loss of teeth and little evidence of caries. She reports that the odor is more severe on waking, as is commonly experienced and referred to as morning mouth.
An examination of the family history is strongly suggestive of H. pylori infection in at least one parent and siblings. One brother has a 20-year history of stomach ulcers and now suffers from coronary artery disease.
Antibody titers with specific ELISA were strongly positive for H. pylori and therapy was initiated with tetracycline/metronidazole/bismuth. Although the patient experienced some nausea she completed the prescribed treatment and it was noted that the halitosis had abated. In the ensuing months serological tests demonstrated a reduction in antibody titer though at six months it was clear that eradication had not been achieved and a second treatment was completed. The patient continues to be free of halitosis.
Discussion
Bacterial anaerobic respiration produces foul smelling compounds which could cause halitosis under suitable conditions. There are two major problems with the hypothesis that H. pylori is the causative organism in this case of halitosis and that eradication of H. pylori led to the cessation of foul smelling breath:
H. pylori is very common infection affecting some 30% of the population. By contrast we know from normal experience that chronic halitosis is relatively uncommon. However since only 10% of the population ever develop peptic ulcer disease it is clear that the progression of the disease varies from subject to subject. Most other infections are self limiting and therefore such a long history indicates an unusual pathology which is supported by our knowledge of the nature of H. pylori within the gastric mucosa.
The combination of tetracycline and metronidazole is effective in the eradication of a wide spectrum of aerobes and anaerobes. Triple therapy will eradicate many possible candidate infections making it unclear whether the therapy was successful directly as a result of it's action on H. pylori or because another organism was eliminated. Over the 60 year period this patient had received a variety of antibiotic therapies for various medical problems without relief from halitosis.
Conclusion
The published guidelines call for routine antimicrobial treatment only in H. pylori infected subjects with ulcers and point out that, at the present time, there is no reason to consider the routine detection or treatment in the absence of ulcers. We await the conclusions of prospective studies on a related group, that is patients with non-ulcer dyspepsia. This case report identifies one patient who appears to have had halitosis as a result of the infection, without any symptoms that would indicate an ulcer and without a history of dyspepsia. More research is needed to establish the range and nature of the symptoms that exist in a non-ulcer H. pylori infected population. This large group has not previously been identified as a target for future research.
Editor's Comments
If H. pylori does cause halitosis then the mechanism might be that these people have intermittent achlorhydria and at times have residual food putrefying in the stomach. In a study in Brazil, we found that 25% of healthy males with HP were producing almost no acid. In this state food takes only a few hours to start to smell after being mixed with saliva and chewed to inoculate it with oral bacteria. If H. pylori and ammonia production (from urease) are present in the stomach of a person who only makes a small amount of acid, any residual acid is neutralized by the ammonia thus making the contents a perfect anaerobic culture medium. After eradication of HP, ammonia product stops and even a small amount of acid will be enough to keep the stomach sterile. Finally, even if the HP were not at fault, our two most effective HP antibiotics (clarithromycin and metronidazole) are secreted in saliva and are likely to eradicate any single pathogenic species, which could cause halitosis, and which might inhabit the mouth.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:53 pm
by TeamZissou
Thanks for the article. These are definitely the two most interesting parts to me:
"The combination of tetracycline and metronidazole is effective in the eradication of a wide spectrum of aerobes and anaerobes. Triple therapy will eradicate many possible candidate infections making it unclear whether the therapy was successful directly as a result of it's action on H. pylori or because another organism was eliminated. Over the 60 year period this patient had received a variety of antibiotic therapies for various medical problems without relief from halitosis."
and
"Finally, even if the HP were not at fault, our two most effective HP antibiotics (clarithromycin and metronidazole) are secreted in saliva and are likely to eradicate any single pathogenic species, which could cause halitosis, and which might inhabit the mouth."
It sounds like this therapy might possibly be beneficial even if you don't have an active h. pylori infection.
Although Halitosisux said he tried it and it didn't work for him.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:54 pm
by halitosisux
Hi, I've not had a chance to come on in the last 24 hrs, but i've been thinking..
Firstly, one thing that a lot of us seem to be reporting, including myself, is that we have PND with not many other symptoms relating to sinus issues. Could this be a common connection between us all that these bugs are living and hiding somewhere in our nasal systems? As we know, sinus bacteria can be difficult to eradicate with antibiotics, and we need to research this very closely - the whole issue of antibiotic effectiveness and potency in different areas of the body.
Another important fact to note is that in this HP/halitosis case study, the patient had become free of BB after the first treatment course, even though it eventually became evident that HP infection had NOT been eradicated, which required a second course of treatment. So in other words it seems very likely that it had nothing to do with the HP. Had they said that halitosis had only improved after the first course, then it would seem more likely to be connected to the HP itself, but it wasnt, she became completely free of BB from the first course.
TeamZissou, i think the duration of my metronidazole courses were not for long enough. The way the BB returned STRAIGHT afterwards indicates to me that although the BB producing bacteria were clearly eradicated from my mouth, (because metronidazole is secreted in saliva) they were not eradicated from my body, and at the moment im suspecting my nose/sinuses as the hiding place.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:25 pm
by TeamZissou
Halitosisux,
That's a good pickup about the fact that the woman in the case study had her BB cured after the first course of treatment even though her HP wasn't fully resolved. The mechanism they described for which an HP infection would cause BB doesn't sound like what many of us have. I see this as a good thing though, because it likely means that there is a certain strain of bacteria causing BB that can be eliminated with the right antibiotic treatment. There's a good chance it happened in this case study, two people have reported it here (on Metronidazole alone even), and some have seen temporary cures.
The point about many of us having PND without necessarily having other sinus symptoms is interesting to me as well. I wonder if tonsil stones and PND is the body's attempt to deal with the abnormal bacteria, instead of just being random occurances that make the situation worse.
It seems bizarre that so many of us have PND without an obvious reason for it, aside from possible silent acid reflux.