The role of Salivary IgA in Oral microbial Ecology

[stressedout]

Murat Aydin,

Can you please reply - why would saliva turn white foamy, especially so when I talk? I had it go away for a while, and yesterday noticed it come back. I tried xylitol, not sure if that is related. Thank you very much.

[aydinmur]

Murat Aydin,

Can you please reply - why would saliva turn white foamy, especially so when I talk? I had it go away for a while, and yesterday noticed it come back. I tried xylitol, not sure if that is related. Thank you very much.

Dear stressedout
Most possible drying of saliva.
How long time do you have this problem? few months or many years?
is there mornings only, or whole day?
is there nasal obstruction? regular drug usage? alcohol? cortisol?


greetings
-Murat Aydin

[stressedout]

Hello Murat Aydin,

Answering your questions:

I have had this for many months, can't remember how it started. Especially happens when I talk, can disappear if i forget it about. In bad times can cover my tongue with white foam after a conversation. Drinking water doesnt fix it (or only for that moment).

Not in the mornings at all. During the day when I am active. I assume I have no nasal obstructions since I have been to ENT (they should have noticed?) NO drugs at all, not even prescription drugs. Alcohol used very rarely on weekends like a glass of wine. I thought it is fungus related? I also read it is due to acid saliva?

Thanks for your help.

[aydinmur]

I have had this for many months, can't remember how it started. Especially happens when I talk, can disappear if i forget it about. In bad times can cover my tongue with white foam after a conversation. Drinking water doesnt fix it (or only for that moment).

Trauma on your lips? teeth? Any burn oral tissues? Do you bite your cheek while you eat somethings? Do you grind your teeth? is there white foaming on both sides of your mouth or one side only? If it is present on both side, whether left and right side is equal or not? is it continue after meal?
Did you have new tooth prosthesis since last year or so? Did you change your tooth paste?

I dont know your age, assume 20-30. If you had this problem since your childhood, I would think your face skelet mismach.

I also read it is due to acid saliva?.

Easy. Get check your saliva pH. But I dont think its underlying reason. Most probable there arae somethings that alters saliva's surface-tension that cause drying and bubbling.
Try heat and colds your mouth when you have white foaming. if colds perevent white foaming think allergy for somethings, otherwise think others.

Its necessary to see your mouth, Sorry I can not help you.
-Murat

[stressedout]

Thank you Murat, you do help.

Answering your questions, the only ones i answer yes are sometimes i bite my cheeck, grinding teeth at night is a problem, i can see foaming on my tongue, like globes of white foam either sides. No dental changes nothing like that. I notice it started happening again after i gargled with xylitol so maybe sugar causing it? Sometimes i use xylitol or biotene toothpastes, and i think it is more after the xylitol one. I dont remember this happening when i was small.

When you say try heat and colds, do you mean to try drinking something cold? I think can be some allergic realction, but this is impossible to figure out. If saliva is acid, do you know how to fix it?

THANK YOU!

[sadman]

FYI and keep up your hope for a definitive cure . Zinc is not the answer

http://www.endoexperience.com/userfiles ... YSTEMS.pdf

Recent developments of molecular biological techniques for microbial identification
have clarified that oral microflora form a microbial complex, or biofilm, consisting of in
excess of 500 microbial species. In addition, studies of interactions between bacterial cells
and between bacteria and host cells are in the process of revealing that this microbial
complex forms a community–a dmicrobial ecosystemT–in which microorganisms interact
competitively and cooperatively. We are relatively familiar with the answer to the question
dWho are they?T, and have now progressed to the question dWhat are they doing there?T
The physiological characteristics of the oral flora, from energy production for survival to
pathogenicity are determined by the metabolic activity they exhibit. Understanding the
range of metabolic characteristics of the microbial ecosystem could be an answer to this
question, and would also provide us with an answer to the question of how we could
control the microbial ecosystem; in other words, how we could control oral diseases such
as dental caries, periodontal diseases and oral malodor.

[sadman]

The effect of trypsin, chymotrypsin and proteinase K on cell lysis was determined following incubation with bacteria, whereas the effect of the same proteolytic enzymes on bacterial growth was tested using a disc-plate technique. Overall, gram-positive bacteria appeared to be more resistant to lysis than gram-negative bacteria. The most susceptible bacteria were Actinomyces spp., Eubacterium saburreum, Prerotella intermedia, Capnocytophaga ochracea, Fitsobacterium nucleatum, Prevotella loescheii, Treponema clenticola and Actinobacilhts actinomycetemcomitans. The disc-plate procedure indicated that the growth of Actinomyces spp., E. sabwreum, C. ochracea, P. intermedia, P. loescheii, Porphyromonas gingivalis and T. dentieola were the most affected, more particularly by chymotrypsin and proteinase K. Interestingly, the growth of F. nucleatum was rather stimulated by proteolytic enzymes. The observations reported in this investigation indicate that specific and general proteolytic activities have the ability to lyse some oral bacterial species and to interfere with their growth. It is suggested that such effects could represent new mechanisms by which the bacterial ecology of subgingival sites may be affected.

[sadman]

Oral bacteria live on Proteins supplied by leftover of food , dead cells , protein in saliva ...If we cut down those protein supplies to the bacteria , we can kill them or control their growth just as by taking raw diet or using antibiotic but with no side effects and bacterial resistance . That's what I am trying to do during the last few days by using digestive enzymes found in Creon , a prescription drug which contains Amylase ( for Glucose digestion) Lipase ( for Lipid ) and Protease ( for Protein ) My theory is that Protease will break down those proteins in the mouth , especially those leftover food debris , dead cells on the tongue coating and enzymatically clean the mouth without brushing , flossing or scraping the tongue , and the Saliva will wash those broken -down proteins away and cut down the nutrition supply to the bacteria . Besides that , bacteria are also protein and Protease can break them down too .

Creon is a capsule with granules of enzyme inside. I break open the capsule . pour the granules inside my mouth ,chew them and keep them for as long as I can . After a few minutes , I can feel a mild irritation in the mouth , a soap smell and not long after that a cleaner mouth , a cleaner teeth , a cleaner tongue and most importantly a better breath . I think that Protease do have an effect on the lysis and growth of oral microflora . Will keep you posted .

[aydinmur]

Oral bacteria live on Proteins supplied by leftover of food , dead cells , protein in saliva ...If we cut off those protein supplies to the bacteria , we can kill them or control their growth just as taking raw diet or using antibiotic

One yes, one no.
- Yes, most odorigenic bacteria need protein.
- No, You can not cut their protein supplies. Saliva, serum, dead mucosal cells, dead bacterial cells, crevicular fluid contain alot of protein. They dont need your food to obtain protein.

Dont restrict yourself. Eat every thing. There is no diet to protect you from halitosis. (if your doc didnt advise some specific diet such as, tmau, lactose intolerance, diabetes, gout, etc).
- Murat Aydın

[ihatethebus]

Oral bacteria live on Proteins supplied by leftover of food , dead cells , protein in saliva ...If we cut off those protein supplies to the bacteria , we can kill them or control their growth just as taking raw diet or using antibiotic but with no side effects and bacterial resistance . That's what I am trying to do during the last few days by using digestive enzymes found in Creon , a prescription drug which contains Amylase ( for Glucose digestion) Lipase ( for Lipid ) and Protease ( for Protein ) My theory is that Protease will break down those proteins in the mouth , especially those leftover food debris , dead cells on the tongue coating and enzymatically clean the mouth without brushing , flossing or scraping the tongue , and the Saliva will take those broken down proteins away and cut off the nutrition supply to the bacteria . Besides that , bacteria are also protein and Protease can break them down too .

Creon is a capsule with granules of enzyme inside. I break open the capsule . pour the granules inside my mouth ,chew them and keep them for as long as I can . After a few minutes , I can feel a mild irritation in the mouth , a soap smell and not long after that a cleaner mouth , a cleaner teeth , a cleaner tongue and most importantly a better breath . I think that Protease do have an effect on the lysis and growth of oral microflora . Will keep you posted .

Sadman,,,id like to urge you on coz i think youre closer to finding yo cure than you think

[sadman]

Aydinmur:

No, You can not cut their protein supplies. Saliva, serum, dead mucosal cells, dead bacterial cells, crevicular fluid contain alot of protein. They dont need your food to obtain protein.

Dont restrict yourself. Eat every thing. There is no diet to protect you from halitosis. (if your doc didnt advise some specific diet such as, tmau, lactose intolerance, diabetes, gout, etc).

What I mean is that if we can cut down ( not cut off , I used the wrong word ) the protein supplies to the bacteria as much as possible by breaking down the protein in the food debris , the tongue coating which is formed by food debris, dead cells , dead bacteria with proteolytic enzyme , we can control the growth of bacteria just like when we eat veggie diet ( may be you mis interpret my statement , I do not promote a restricted diet . A cure is not a cure if you can not eat anything you like just as no BB people ) :

BTW do you think that proteolytic enzyme can lyse some oral bacteria

[seanlee1980]

Very good read guys. I have actually got myself tested for Immunoglobulin deficiency a few years back. It turned out I do have low counts of IgA. I got myself tested because I thought my immune system was weak and the results were my confirmation.

My doctor told me there is no cure for immunoglobulin deficiency. He said there is a treatment of injecting myself with IgA, but this would be a lifetime treatment and would be very costly so I never went through the treatment.

I believe one of the main reason my immune system is weak is because I am easily stressed and nervous. Now, more so because of this bb condition. And, in turn our psychosis is another reason we have bb. My bb started around junior high school. This is when I was really introduced to stressful situations like making good grades, pleasing my demanding parents, fitting in with peers, competition, etc. It seems like this is the case for a lot of chronic bb sufferers.

I know it may sound cliche but diet, exercise and relaxation goes a long way in helping this condition and our overall health. I don't think Dr. Ayudinimar meant what he said about diet not having to do anything with bb. I know it's not a cure but eating whatever can make it worse.

[ihatethebus]

instead of goin back and forth about you can cut down protein and bli bla blo jus take protease and food grade animal hydrochloric acid tablets. will atleast eliminate the rotten odor fer ya in 3 days max.

[sadman]

seeenlee1980 : FYI

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... =firefox-a

[sadman]

Enteric-coated proteolytic enzyme preparations like Wobenzym® and Phlogenzym® are widely used for the so-called ‘systemic enzyme therapy’ both in humans and animals. Numerous publications reveal that oral proteolytic enzymes are able to stimulate directly the activity of immune competent cells as well as to increase efficiency of some of their products. But origins of the immunostimulatory effects of oral proteolytic enzymes are still unclear. The hypothesis described here suggests that it may be proteolysis of intestinal microorganisms that makes the immune competent cells to work in the immunostimulatory manner. The hypothesis was largely formed by several scientific observations: First, microbial lysis products (lipopolysaccharides, muropeptides and other peptidoglycan fragments, β-glucans, etc.) are well known for their immunostimulatory action. Second, a normal human being hosts a mass of intestinal microorganisms equivalent to about 1kg. The biomass (mainly due to naturally occurring autolysis) continuously supplies the host’s organism with immunostimulatory microbial cell components. Third, the immunostimulatory effects resulting from the oral application of exogenously acting antimicrobial (lytic) enzyme preparations, such as lysozyme and lysosubtilin, are likely to be a result of the action of microbial lysis products. Fourth, cell walls of most microorganisms contain a considerable amount of proteins/peptides, a possible target for exogenous proteolytic enzymes. In fact, several authors have already shown that a number of proteases possess an ability to lyse the microbial cells in vitro. Fifth, the pretreatment of microbial cells (at least of some species) in vitro with proteolytic enzymes makes them more sensitive to the lytic action of lysozyme and, otherwise, pretreatment with lysozyme makes them more susceptible to proteolytic degradation. Sixth, exogenous proteases, when in the intestines, may participate in final steps of food-protein digestion. The resulting food-borne peptides have recently been shown to be potential activators of microbial autolysis. The main question that needs to be answered in order to verify the hypothesis is whether oral proteases are able (and to what extent) to lyse/mediate lysis of intestinal microorganisms in situ. Methods based on up-to-date molecular biology techniques to allow investigation of the influence of exogenous proteases on microbial lysis processes in vivo (in the intestines) need to be developed. Research testing of this hypothesis may have an important impact in development of novel preparations for the systemic enzyme therapy.