Bad Breath Halitosis Forum

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:05 am**

telpar wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:52 am @stevian

It's a pleasure for me to talk with you

Doubtless the cysteine challenge test is valuable in a research environment, but from what little I can discern through Google, it may require very specific equipment and training, and isn’t technologically ready to install in a typical dental practice. It’s deployment is apparently limited to academic and/or corporate research facilities .
You're right.
For the same reason we have no gas detector such as OralChroma in dental practise. They're very expensive and require periodical manutention.
From the other side, we have many ambulatory of oral medicine in university clinic. In my opinion they should have a gascromatograph and cysteine challenge test should be inserted among the available exams.
In Italy I know at least of two universites who have it. It's yet too bit.

The simple tests I’ve used do require an honest evaluation by a trusted second party. For example an acquaintance of mine complained of strong halitosis. Luckily for her she gets assessment from her daughter. At my suggestion she used chlorhexadine 0.2% and found that a 2 minute gargle with 10ml cx reduced her breath odor to zero (on a scale of 0-10) immediately after the rinse and 6/10 nine hours later.
Ok, I’m not a professor, nor have any formal training in biological science or health sciences, but to me this seems to me to yield a useable diagnosis of type 1 intra-oral.
In my opinion, if clorexidine works for your acquiatance, then this is a clear case of halitosis intraoral. Maybe some undiagnosed issue in his mouth or a particular anatomy of the tongue.

Similar tests could be deployed using diluted hydrogen peroxide or diluted unscented household bleach.
No, please. Those chemical are dangerous and toxic.
We are people who suffer of bad breath. Not alchemists.

It’s clear me that antibiotics haven’t worked in the past, and they were taken internally in pill or capsule form. The problem appeared to be the lack of saliva uptake of the antibiotic. Also internal use presents the danger of system-wide antibiotic resistance.
We have not a disease. Those bacteria are not pathogenic. So in my opinione we don't need antibiotics.
We can't change our oral microbiote with antibiotics. If ecology doesn't change, profile bacteria is restored few days after antibiotical are dismissed.

Oral microbiology, oral bacterial pathology, and especially oral ecology, are still still mysterious to most dental practitioners, but I think Jim Hyland in Toronto might be on the right track, though I doubt his regimen is the last word on it. Theres never a last word, in my opinion. Intra-oral halitosis and a long term cure will probably be “solved” in time for our grandchildren to enjoy.
First of all, we should determine whether the tongue serves as a bacterial reservoir or is the origin for oral bacteria.
If tongue serves as a bacterial reservoir, we have to locate the origin otherwise the tongue will always be colonized by bacteria.

I don’t really seek a cure for my halitosis, I’m looking for practical, effective ways to manage the problem.
It's the same for me.

Please keep us updated on the outcome of your visit to Toronto.
I wish you the best.

@ telpar
A few clarifications here.

Actually, chlorhexadine is a chemical and can be toxic if used improperly. Everything is a chemical. Chlorhexadine doesn’t exist in nature. In most of North America cx requires a prescription, whereas hydrogen peroxide and sodium hypochlorite are household items, useful and safe if properly diluted.

Actually, some strains of oral bacteria are indeed pathenogenic, including those that cause cavities in teeth, and those that feed on our tissues in our gingival crevices. Some oral bacteria have been implicated in a number of systemic diseases and disorders.

Where do our bacteria some from? I guess that’s what you mean by origin? We get them from other people, including from mama, when we pass through her birth canal. Those born by Caesarean section are not so affected. Yes, oral bacteria are contagious, and some strains may be pathenogenic in one person and not in another.

I’m not making a trip to Toronto. I’m getting it done through an associate practitioner in my area.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:17 pm**

Stevian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:05 am
@ telpar

Where do our bacteria some from? I guess that’s what you mean by origin? We get them from other people, including from mama, when we pass through her birth canal. Those born by Caesarean section are not so affected. Yes, oral bacteria are contagious, and some strains may be pathenogenic in one person and not in another.

A misunderstanding here. I was meaning that in halitosis type 2 tongue serves as a bacterial reservoir but is not the origin for oral bacteria. The origin could be, for instance, tonsil vegetation, adenoid vegetation, sinus nasal etc.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:10 pm**

@ telpar

I wrote:
Where do our bacteria some from? I guess that’s what you mean by origin? We get them from other people, including from mama, when we pass through her birth canal. Those born by Caesarean section are not so affected. Yes, oral bacteria are contagious, and some strains may be pathenogenic in one person and not in another.

A misunderstanding here. I was meaning that in halitosis type 2 tongue serves as a bacterial reservoir but is not the origin for oral bacteria. The origin could be, for instance, tonsil vegetation, adenoid vegetation, sinus nasal etc.

@ telpar
Ok, yes, seems obvious the papillae of the tongue dorsum are a reservoir for some, likely many of the 700 or so known strains of oral bacteria.
Not getting much on Google search for tonsil and/or adenoid vegetation. Not sure if I understand the concept, specifically the difference between a reservoir and a vegetation. Clarify?

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:21 pm**

@ stevian

The tongue is a rough surface, rich in papillae. The surface of the tongue, when stretched, is as large as that of an iPad.
This surface is difficult to clean. It is also humid. The ideal place where bacteria can live and multiply.
The tongue is the reservoir that collects bacteria, but in some cases they come to the tongue from other parts, for example from subclinical inflammations of the tonsils, adenoids, concha bullosa, etc.
This is extraoral halitosis or halitosis type 2 according Murat/Woodworth classification.
For this type of halitosis mouthwash with clorexidine or zinc chloride are uneffective.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:53 pm**

telpar wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:21 pm @ stevian

The tongue is a rough surface, rich in papillae. The surface of the tongue, when stretched, is as large as that of an iPad.
This surface is difficult to clean. It is also humid. The ideal place where bacteria can live and multiply.
The tongue is the reservoir that collects bacteria, but in some cases they come to the tongue from other parts, for example from subclinical inflammations of the tonsils, adenoids, concha bullosa, etc.
This is extraoral halitosis or halitosis type 2 according Murat/Woodworth classification.
For this type of halitosis mouthwash with clorexidine or zinc chloride are uneffective.

@telpar

It seems to me chlorhexadine should be at least partially effective for type 2 (throat) if gargled way back in the throat, yes? No?

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:46 pm**

@stevian

I do not know.
But I know that chlorhexidine can only be used for a few days and is not a cure because it does not correct the ecology.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:28 am**

telpar wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:46 pm @stevian

chlorhexidine can only be used for a few days and is not a cure because it does not correct the ecology.

Which is a very good argument for a 3 step process: antibiotic rinses, followed by chlorhexadine rinses, followed by dental probiotics.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:12 am**

Stevian wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:28 am
telpar wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:46 pm @stevian

chlorhexidine can only be used for a few days and is not a cure because it does not correct the ecology.
Which is a very good argument for a 3 step process: antibiotic rinses, followed by chlorhexadine rinses, followed by dental probiotics.

We have billions of bacteria in our mouths.

Bacteria always come back. Fortunately, I add. Because with antibiotic and chlorhexidine both bacteria, bad and good, are killed.

My friend, I don't want to discourage you. I cheer for you. I hope you will succeed.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:58 pm**

telpar wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:12 am
Stevian wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:28 am
telpar wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:46 pm @stevian

chlorhexidine can only be used for a few days and is not a cure because it does not correct the ecology.
Which is a very good argument for a 3 step process: antibiotic rinses, followed by chlorhexadine rinses, followed by dental probiotics.
We have billions of bacteria in our mouths.

Bacteria always come back. Fortunately, I add. Because with antibiotic and chlorhexidine both bacteria, bad and good, are killed.

My friend, I don't want to discourage you. I cheer for you. I hope you will succeed, perhaps annually or some such.

@ telpar — Thank you for cheering!

I took a course of internal antibiotics a decade or so ago and that was a waste of time and money. This is a better approach because it delivers the antibiotic where it needs to be - in the mouth and throat.

And yet I suspect many fail on antibiotic rinses because they swish rather than gargle. No particular need to swish unless targeting gum disease, and rinses in any case mostly fail to reach the infected periodontal pockets.
For those with gum disease an antibiotic ointment applied to the gums in the affected areas works better, and the ointment is prescribed in those cases.

The other ways that rinses fail are inadequate pre-dosage preparation, incorrect dosage, and incorrect behaviors following rinses, meaning even though cautioned otherwise, patients may often immediately follow the prescribed rinse with water or food. This of course will reduce or nullify the antibiotic or antibacterial effect.

Yes, bacteria repopulate even in isolation, because less than 100% of the organisms are killed off. The few survivors will quickly or eventually repopulate, and may in fact have some immunity to the antibiotic or antibacterial agent.

The idea of the dental probiotic immediately following the rinses is of course to help ensure the new bacteria population is more healthy than the previous one, iow, to alter the long term oral ecology. Efficacy? Unknown to me. I’ll do a search on it.

Overall I suspect short and long term recidivism is quite high, even with maintenance rinses and excellent oral hygiene, but the treatment costs hundreds, not thousands, so those who can afford it may elect to redo the treatment, perhaps annually or some such.

My own case, though mildly dank at close range, is already well-controlled so long as I stay well hydrated, drink lots of liquid with meals, and rigorously floss and scrape my tongue immediately after eating. Yes, I have used various nonprescription maintenance rinses, and have had good results with some of them, especially Therabreath Plus Maximum. The treatment in my case is more of an informal research project than a dire necessity.

Yes, there are far worse cases out there, and I’ve privately chatted with some of them. In that sense I do feel fortunate!
Most of them live in third world countries and cannot afford these sorts of treatments, and are generally not very literate or educated on oral health, periodontics, halitosis types, etc.
Even so, being desperate, they’re wasting their little money pursuing herbal remedies, so-called holistic medicine, yada yada, makes me sad!

Posted: **Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:10 pm**

space wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 7:33 am PART 2

So far, I have read about 4 members who have posted about the mucus and mentioned their solution.

- NOTANYMORE - I hope this is the right spelling of his username. Just to be clear, his symptom was like green or brown phlegm (not clear), but his predominant smell is also fecal. His solution was a combination of surgeries which I'm not sure if he was completely cured since it was an old thread already. But he wrote, similar to this, that there are days that the mucus exist but dont smell.

- Renato1 (in Raymond's breathing technique thread) have mentioned that he also have this mucus. He's older and seems to have also researched through these years. His solution was not permanent, the mucus still exist, but he has a way of managing the smell, by taking S.Salivarius (he have mentioned brands, but one of it is quite expensive). My point is, although I have thought that the mucus won't ever go away, the main point is how it is going to smell. "EVEN THE MUCUS WILL EXIST FOREVER, BUT WON'T STINK/SMELL = NO EXTREME BB" (that's only a theory though) He thinks that the smelly bacteria/sibo is what causing his mucus to smell. The S. Salivarius somewhat neutralizes it.

- another is HopefulOne, I hope I wrote the right username as there have been similar usernames with the word "hopeful". He also has mucus, his solution was drinking baking soda water. I think that this solution might be good for only special occasions like for a day or two since drinking baking soda water for long term HAS NEGATIVE SIDE EFFECTS.

- most recently, justcured, I'm also not sure if his completely cured or he have already tested his breath with other people. I reread his thread and he has not stated anything about encounter or his new experience with other people other than stating that he has check his breath. I'm not saying I don't believe what he have posted, I just wan't to make sure since his title is saying up to 99%.

I will leave two questions for us to ponder:

1. What's the root cause of this extra mucus production? (THIS IS REALLY HARD TO ANSWER, might skip to number 2)

2. If the theory: "Even mucus wont ever go away, but wont stink = no bb" is right... What could we do to keep the mucus free of offensive smell? (I really want to try the S. Salivarius but as he said, its only temporary, smells comes back the third day if you stop taking it)

Please don't be shy if you have something to correct or add to this post. Thank you for reading this far.

I discovered or believe this breathing technique but with another hypothesis, I thought that there was an area of the mouth that did not receive proper oxygenation and that allowed the proliferation of anaerobic bacteria,
I had this idea after thinking that nobody teaches us to breathe, we just learn naturally with our first cry at birth. but after everything I experienced with this technique I came to two conclusions, that many people must breathe in the wrong way and do not know it, and second, that the cause of this extreme bb is not periodically changing the phlegm that is in throat. phlegm, by not being periodically replaced, accumulates bacteria, and my breathing technique precisely what it does is remove said phlegm, a breeding ground for bacteria if it is not periodically removed, and phlegm is like saliva, it is normal that is always taking place.

Posted: **Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:18 pm**

if there is no phlegm in the throat, you would have a dry throat, that would be horrible, you cannot live with that area free of moisture and lubrication, you cannot wish to have a throat free of saliva, I think that any doctor could explain it to you better. The thing is to periodically replace the saliva with fresh saliva and if you breathe incorrectly, that replacement does not take place and bacteria accumulate, so brushing your teeth does not solve the problem but chewing mint gum does, since this with saliva does. reaches the affected area and covers or masks the source of the bb.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:46 pm**

Badluck01 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:44 pm
Tee wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:49 am @Badluck01

My sinus was checked using CT scan and X-ray. Turns out I had enlarged inferior turbinates due to Rhinitis, no other problems were found .
That's not responsible for halitosis.
Thought maybe a bacteria pocket in there could create a strong smell.
My case is getting worst by the week. Did your smell eventually stabilize?

Sadly NO.

It gets worse daily. I can't stand in the open(outdoors) at this point. Everyone within 10-15ft of me starts holding their noses while my MOUTH IS SHUT! , Not saying a word.

A few years ago the BB was tolerable. Only when I spoke at close distances.. now it's everywhere, like a presence.

We all have similar experiences/symptoms. occurrence, timing and everything matches at some point. Yet no one can fix this.

SAD

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:32 pm**

Hello, for you its sad, but at least you can smell or taste it for yourselfe. i had corona last year, and got a Anosmie, there i can^t smell or taste, absolute nothing, and i was working with this BB.
Do you know how terrible is it?!
come from germany

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