What research is everyone doing?

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:54 pm

I haven't looked through old posts that much, so I'm sure this has come up a few times already, but I think we could all do a better job of doing some first hand research. I don't mean to be a pessimist, but combing the web for the cure-all magic mouthwash or supplement isn't goign to yield anything.

For those of us that have jobs and good insurance, we should be milking the benefits by talking to doctors and dentists frequently. We probably won't turn up a cure, but maybe we'll find someone who is curious about our problem and is determined to help us find out more. What's there to lose?

We also need an unbiased means of judging what makes our breath better or worse. I've been looking for a close friend for a while to help me do this, and of the 5 or so people I have asked, only 1 has said that I have bad breath, and that was on one occasion of the 10 times I asked. Great news, except for that two dentists have confirmed I have bad breath and actually stick the air hose in my mouth even just to look at my teeth with a mirror. One told me I should go to a doctor. And just last week, I had someone who was sitting next to me at work switch chairs as soon as I started talking... while I was chewing gum.

Since the people who care about us are less likely to be honest, I haven't found a good answer for this. I may save up and actually try to buy a halimeter or something and run an indefinitely long experiment of what makes my breath better or worse. This way I won't get arrested for trying to lure some random child up into my apartment three times a day to smell my breath.

Anyway, I would be interested in hearing what everyone thinks. I am always skeptical of when someone says "beer makes their breath worse" or "I've seen a 20% improvement", since our only metric seems to be based on facial expressions and nose touches per minute. I don't think we need to be doctors or biologists to do some elementary research, so I'm trying my best to turn this problem into a science project.

viva · Post by **viva** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:43 pm

Hi,Brian.
I absolutely agree with the point as long as one has insurence one needs to SHAKE HELL OUT OF DOCTORS TO GET PROPER DIAGNOSTICS AND TREATMENT. This is a key to get the condition if not treated but improved and managed.

Forum memebers do great work in suggesting different types of causes that doctors often overlook,but we keepenig them in mind can always ask like GERD andl laryngopharyngeal reflux.

There are also good suggestions how to improve care regimen and diet and health overall like probiotics that useful for everybody

What concears store brands and "one pill magic cure" as reality shows these don't work.
Each individual if doesn't have different causes, has their hierarchy and needs different and needs customized CoMPLEX Treatment.
No MORE GUESSES AND TRIAL AND ERROR METHOD.
Prior to taking any under the counter medcines then Doc must be consulted.
One example of misuse is Chlorhexidine which is strong and causes teeth discoloration and disbacteriosis if used longer than needed and in more than needed amounts.
Some members here used for a long period of time washing mouth and nose with adverse reactions.Not a surprise.Why because thy did id in their own!!!!!!!!!
Chlorhexidine should be used on tounge only and for 2 weeks twice a day than if needed once a day only on tounge.

Snobuni · Post by **Snobuni** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:24 pm

Viva,

What's disbacteriosis? I've read a few scientific papers about the use of chlorhexidine, and they all found that it doesn't reach the maximum amount of antibacterial activity until after 21 days of use.

viva · Post by **viva** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:09 pm

Disbacteriosis occurs when the balance of bacterial types in the patient is broken.
In case of mouth cavity,antibacterials not anly reduce the amount of bad BB causing bacteria but also good probiotic bacteria that in their normal amounts help to naturally control growth of bad ones.There when the imbalance occurs if one takes too much and too long antibacterials.

The way to use Chlorhexidine was prescribed me by a dentist.And two weeks was enough to reduce sulfur pruducing and ther bad bacteria.
Generally ,my GP never recomended to use any mouth antibacterial more than a week.

Larc400 · Post by **Larc400** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:16 pm

I guess that's where oral probiotics come in. I only know of two brands though: BLIS/K12 and PerioBalance. We need more oral probiotics!

For novices: the idea behind BLIS etc is to first kill off all oral bacteria (with chlorhex), then re-colonize with 'good bacteria'. But two species are hardly gonna save us...

As for personal 'research': you should instead ask me what research I have *not* been doing in the last few years. I feel I've done it all

viva · Post by **viva** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:32 pm

Year Larc400.You've got my point.
As far as I concerned probiotics that are good for intestines are also good for mouth as long as one takes them.

Snobuni · Post by **Snobuni** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:20 pm

My ENT doctor recommended stopping all antibacterials when I had my appointment 2 weeks ago.

I stopped, and even though I take HUGE amounts of probiotics every day, including the periobalance, my breath just got worse and worse as the days went by, until I gave in and used chlorhexidine just to try and get it down from horrendously bad to just very bad.

I think, stopping using antibacterials is good if your mouth bacteria has the ability to come back into a natural balance, but if you're lacking any kind of good bacteria in useful amounts it just seems to make bb 10 times worse.

I suppose 2 weeks isn't very long to try to restablish the correct balance, but I don't know if I could go any longer waiting for it to get better. As I said, my breath just got worse every day, the coating on my tongue just kept getting thicker and whiter. When this happens should I just perservere or go back to the antibacterials again?

Snobuni · Post by **Snobuni** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:46 pm

I've just looked at the Breezecare products and it seems the active ingredient is chlorine dioxide. I've used several products with this ingredient (Katz's stuff, Retardex, Dailey's stuff, even MMS). None of these products have ever improved my breath beyond about the first 2 weeks of use.

viva · Post by **viva** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:52 am

Snobuni,
You breath got worse after you stopped using antibacterials maybe case
you overused it and killed averything good and after you stop bad bacteria grew rapedly.
Tell what kind of antibacterials and dosage you used and have you done any bacteriological tests to know the kinds of nasty bacteria in the mouth.

With Chlorhexidine 0.12% firest two weeks 2 times a day morning and evening on the tounge than couple more weeks 1 a day in the morning then stop when you feel you can do that.Don't overuse it .Now I don't use it at all.
Take 3 times more probiotics than your brand says and you should be good.
Viva

Snobuni · Post by **Snobuni** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:26 am

Hi Viva,

Thanks for the advice, I'll try the chlorhexidine the way you suggested, twice a day for 2 weeks, once a day for a week, then stop and see what happens. At the minute I'm taking 3-4 times the recommended dosage of probiotics, not seen a change yet though.

I agree, I probably don't have any good bacteria left cos of over use of antibacterial rinses, but, how will I ever get good bacteria to come back when I stop using the antibacterials, won't I always just end up over-run with bad bacteria even after using oral probiotics?

I have thought of asking my GP to take swabs from my mouth to find out what's growing there, but even if she agreed to do that, what would be the conclusion, take some antibiotics?

Do you still have bb after stopping antibacterials? Did it eventually improve after you stopped the antibacterials?

Larc400 · Post by **Larc400** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:59 pm

That's the point of probiotics --- to introduce 'good bacteria' after killing the 'bad ones' ... but we know of only two products with oral probiotics (Breeze K12 and Periobalance). We need more!

iva · Post by **iva** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:24 pm

Larc400 wrote:That's the point of probiotics --- to introduce 'good bacteria' after killing the 'bad ones' ... but we know of only two products with oral probiotics (Breeze K12 and Periobalance). We need more!

How can probiotics introduce 'good bacteria' after killing the 'bad ones' if the oral cavity is far too acidic and no good bacteria can exist in such an acidic environment?

Larc400 · Post by **Larc400** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:52 pm

Those 'good' have been cultured from other people's mouths so it must be possible

My saliva pH is not acidic at all, it's alkaline. Something like 7-9 most of the time (which can give bad breath). If you have an acidic mouth the 'bad' bacteria won't survive either. Have you measured your oral pH?

iva · Post by **iva** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:59 pm

I haven`t measured it, but its a good idea, one should know if there is a chance to populate one`s mouth with good bacteria..By the way how can u measure ph in ur mouth? And what is the best ph for the good bacteria to be able to survive?

Larc400 · Post by **Larc400** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:15 pm

I don't think there is a huge difference between the pH at which 'good' and 'bad' can survive, and that's an oversimplification anyway. ...but I think those fuckers who produce sulphur eggy smells like pH above 7. I think this is true for most bacteria though...

You can get pH strips in your pharmacy, and measure the pH of your saliva

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