I have been thinking lately about chronic sinusitis as a possibe cause of BB.
It can cause infected pnd, which could mean bacteria in our mouths. Also the whole antibiotics working for while your on them, then stopping working after, could be backed up by this. The bacteria in sinuses that are infected usually are in biofilms, hich can protect them from antibiotics.
So when you take antibiotcis, any bacteria in the mouth if killed, and as the pnd drips down any bacteria in it is killed too, but the bacteria protected in the sinuses is safe, so when the antibiotics are finished, the drip brings the bacteria back to the moouth where it can survivie again.
I was wondering who has had a doctor actually look in their sinus?
Remember that guy chuckwho, wh got cured. His infection didnt even show on cat scans if Im right. i also read of others.
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Sinuses
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halitosisux
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Hi asd,
It makes sense for a number of reasons.
Firstly, any of the bacteria commonly found in the oral cavity could find their way into the sinuses with ease, and live quite happily in any anaerobic areas without any symptoms other than perhaps higher levels of PND (which most of us do seem to report).
The anaerobic habitats found within the sinuses, particularly when they have been damaged by acute bacterial infections, makes them the perfect sanctuary where antibiotics have been proven to have become ineffective against them. This would explain why some of us who have taken metronidazole, which is secreted in our saliva and which instantly wipes out the anaerobic bacterial strains inside the mouth causing the BB, only for EXACTLY the same situation to resume once the metronidazole is stopped - as though a bacterial tap had been left running somewhere (drip drip).
Sinus scans will generally only show active infections normally associated with poor drainage or acute bacterial infection. It would be interesting if mucus taken from the sinuses could be cultured whilst on a course of antibiotics that are able to eradicate the BB temporarily the way metronidazole is able to.
It also offers an explanation why some people become permanently cured whilst taking metronidazole or combinations that include metronidazole, which may have managed to eradicate certain colonies of bacteria hiding in the sinuses.
It makes sense for a number of reasons.
Firstly, any of the bacteria commonly found in the oral cavity could find their way into the sinuses with ease, and live quite happily in any anaerobic areas without any symptoms other than perhaps higher levels of PND (which most of us do seem to report).
The anaerobic habitats found within the sinuses, particularly when they have been damaged by acute bacterial infections, makes them the perfect sanctuary where antibiotics have been proven to have become ineffective against them. This would explain why some of us who have taken metronidazole, which is secreted in our saliva and which instantly wipes out the anaerobic bacterial strains inside the mouth causing the BB, only for EXACTLY the same situation to resume once the metronidazole is stopped - as though a bacterial tap had been left running somewhere (drip drip).
Sinus scans will generally only show active infections normally associated with poor drainage or acute bacterial infection. It would be interesting if mucus taken from the sinuses could be cultured whilst on a course of antibiotics that are able to eradicate the BB temporarily the way metronidazole is able to.
It also offers an explanation why some people become permanently cured whilst taking metronidazole or combinations that include metronidazole, which may have managed to eradicate certain colonies of bacteria hiding in the sinuses.
Hi asd
Thanks for posting this, as I've had my sinuses looked at in the past and was given the all clear. However every time I come into contact with certain things like mold, I would get an infection or like now when it's cold and windy.
I had my tonsils removed because I suffer from pnd and didn't want that collecting around that area. I use to get those tonsil stones as well. I must say the op did help me because my throat feels so much better and I can chew mint gums now.
I am abit funny about using the word 'cure' for bb because if we all had fresh breath and didn't brush we would have some kind of odor. I guess what I am trying to say is, maybe we should be looking at things to reduce the bacteria build up and also a good maintenance system. I know alot of sufferers have reached their wits end with looking for a ‘cure’, but there is always something else we can try. People for instance who eat alot of spicy or strong flavoured food, will not be doing themselves any favours if they want fresh breath, so diet is definitely one aspect.
I wish chuckwho would come back to let us know about his story again because I've only been on here for about a 1 year now. I would like to know how he went about convincing his doctor to go further after an all clear from a sinus scan.
Thanks for posting this, as I've had my sinuses looked at in the past and was given the all clear. However every time I come into contact with certain things like mold, I would get an infection or like now when it's cold and windy.
I had my tonsils removed because I suffer from pnd and didn't want that collecting around that area. I use to get those tonsil stones as well. I must say the op did help me because my throat feels so much better and I can chew mint gums now.
I am abit funny about using the word 'cure' for bb because if we all had fresh breath and didn't brush we would have some kind of odor. I guess what I am trying to say is, maybe we should be looking at things to reduce the bacteria build up and also a good maintenance system. I know alot of sufferers have reached their wits end with looking for a ‘cure’, but there is always something else we can try. People for instance who eat alot of spicy or strong flavoured food, will not be doing themselves any favours if they want fresh breath, so diet is definitely one aspect.
I wish chuckwho would come back to let us know about his story again because I've only been on here for about a 1 year now. I would like to know how he went about convincing his doctor to go further after an all clear from a sinus scan.
Re: Sinuses
I readed on a forum,that if the acute sinusitis is not treated well( 3-4 weeks of treatment on antibiotics),it become chronic,then the bacteria reproduces constantly.asd wrote:I have been thinking lately about chronic sinusitis as a possibe cause of BB.
It can cause infected pnd, which could mean bacteria in our mouths. Also the whole antibiotics working for while your on them, then stopping working after, could be backed up by this. The bacteria in sinuses that are infected usually are in biofilms, hich can protect them from antibiotics.
So when you take antibiotcis, any bacteria in the mouth if killed, and as the pnd drips down any bacteria in it is killed too, but the bacteria protected in the sinuses is safe, so when the antibiotics are finished, the drip brings the bacteria back to the moouth where it can survivie again.
I was wondering who has had a doctor actually look in their sinus?
Remember that guy chuckwho, wh got cured. His infection didnt even show on cat scans if Im right. i also read of others.
If its chronic you need to take antibiotics for about 6 weeks because it take long time to reach the sinuses.
i didnt take this treatment because i was too young,but with time it becomed worse and then bb developed.
Go to a doctor to do a complete check up of the sinuses(evaluation of the drip) and nose.
i am waiting school to end,and then i will go myself to an ent to check it out.
Prey
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halitosisux
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Some quotes from wikipedia..
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Role of biofilms
Biofilms are complex aggregates of extracellular matrix and inter-dependent microorganisms from multiple species, many of which may be difficult or impossible to isolate using standard clinical laboratory techniques. Bacteria found in biofilms may show increased antibiotic resistance when compared to free-living bacteria of the same species. It has been hypothesized that biofilm-type infections may account for many cases of antibiotic-refractory chronic sinusitis.[1] A recent study found that biofilms were present on the mucosa of 3/4 of patients undergoing surgery for chronic sinusitis.
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The final stage of biofilm formation is known as development, and is the stage in which the biofilm is established and may only change in shape and size. This development of biofilm allows for the cells to become more antibiotic resistant.
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Researchers from the Helmholtz Center for Infection Research have found the strategies used by biofilms. They discovered that biofilm bacteria apply chemical weapons in order to defend themselves against disinfectants and antibiotics, phagocytes and our immune system.
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Bacteria living in a biofilm usually have significantly different properties from free-floating bacteria of the same species, as the dense and protected environment of the film allows them to cooperate and interact in various ways. One benefit of this environment is increased resistance to detergents and antibiotics, as the dense extracellular matrix and the outer layer of cells protect the interior of the community. In some cases antibiotic resistance can be increased 1000 fold.
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Biofilms have been found to be involved in a wide variety of microbial infections in the body, by one estimate 80% of all infections.
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It has recently been shown that biofilms are present on the removed tissue of 80% of patients undergoing surgery for chronic sinusitis.
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Role of biofilms
Biofilms are complex aggregates of extracellular matrix and inter-dependent microorganisms from multiple species, many of which may be difficult or impossible to isolate using standard clinical laboratory techniques. Bacteria found in biofilms may show increased antibiotic resistance when compared to free-living bacteria of the same species. It has been hypothesized that biofilm-type infections may account for many cases of antibiotic-refractory chronic sinusitis.[1] A recent study found that biofilms were present on the mucosa of 3/4 of patients undergoing surgery for chronic sinusitis.
---------------------
The final stage of biofilm formation is known as development, and is the stage in which the biofilm is established and may only change in shape and size. This development of biofilm allows for the cells to become more antibiotic resistant.
--------------------
Researchers from the Helmholtz Center for Infection Research have found the strategies used by biofilms. They discovered that biofilm bacteria apply chemical weapons in order to defend themselves against disinfectants and antibiotics, phagocytes and our immune system.
---------------------
Bacteria living in a biofilm usually have significantly different properties from free-floating bacteria of the same species, as the dense and protected environment of the film allows them to cooperate and interact in various ways. One benefit of this environment is increased resistance to detergents and antibiotics, as the dense extracellular matrix and the outer layer of cells protect the interior of the community. In some cases antibiotic resistance can be increased 1000 fold.
---------------------
Biofilms have been found to be involved in a wide variety of microbial infections in the body, by one estimate 80% of all infections.
---------------------
It has recently been shown that biofilms are present on the removed tissue of 80% of patients undergoing surgery for chronic sinusitis.
-----------------------
Interestingly, there is a clinic in Georgia, which offers treatment with Phage technology. Phages are basicly viruses.
When the western world developed antibiotics, the Soviet Union went down a different path, the path of using viruses on bacteria. Ofc these were viruses safe to humans that kill certain bacteria. However down the line antibiotis has won through. Whether this is because they are better, or because they are more profitable for phameceutical companies, or because the Western world has had more influence, who knows. However there seem to be some advantages of using viruses, such as no resistance, and the ability to penetrate biofilms.
This is the webby: http://www.phagetherapycenter.com/pii/P ... _sinusitis
Anyways, I recently had an ENT appointment at a private clinic, and I am kind of regretting not asking him to check my sinuses. I was sort of preoccupied about securing the tonsillectomy.
How would I be able to tell if I had a sinus problem? I never knew how to identify it.
When the western world developed antibiotics, the Soviet Union went down a different path, the path of using viruses on bacteria. Ofc these were viruses safe to humans that kill certain bacteria. However down the line antibiotis has won through. Whether this is because they are better, or because they are more profitable for phameceutical companies, or because the Western world has had more influence, who knows. However there seem to be some advantages of using viruses, such as no resistance, and the ability to penetrate biofilms.
This is the webby: http://www.phagetherapycenter.com/pii/P ... _sinusitis
Anyways, I recently had an ENT appointment at a private clinic, and I am kind of regretting not asking him to check my sinuses. I was sort of preoccupied about securing the tonsillectomy.
How would I be able to tell if I had a sinus problem? I never knew how to identify it.
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halitosisux
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asd, thanx for that link,
It's fascinating. I was reading a little bit about the subject in wikipedia earlier. I think it was this treatment which happens to be embroilled in fights over patent rights. I'm making a note of it anyway.
My tonsillectomy had no benefit whatsoever for my BB. Nevertheless it has apparently helped some people, but I'd still strongly advise anyone considering this to leave it as a last resort. Its difficult to resist when you smell the odour coming from them, but i firmly believe that if any other anaerobic areas such as the tonsils were present in that vicinity, they'd become just as putrid.
A "sinus problem" is usually a sinus infection termed sinusitis. Normally caused by blockage of the sinus ostia that allow them to drain and breathe. Acute infections which clear by themselves if the reason for the ostia blockage (colds, viruses, allergies etc) is relieved should readily clear. But if this acute infection persists for long enough the tissues there can become physically damaged and remain a chronic condition even after the ostia open up. In this situation the condition can remain mostly symptomless, possibly leading to these bacterial biofilms developing. Considering that some ENT surgeons havent even heard of tonsilloliths, i dont know where that leaves us with the average ENT specialist with regards to symptomless people in our position.
I've noticed that many people on here, including myself, seem to report having a clear but definite PND, could this be a common connection?
I read that asthma is related to this situation, which i also have. Does anyone else have asthma? On some occasions ive also experienced the most excruciating pains during flights as the cabin pressure is raised or lowered. I've also experienced a copious thick black tar-like discharge suddenly when blowing my nose on two occasions in my life. These happened for no particular reason and right out of the blue, and felt like it was coming out of my sinuses and completely filled my tissue (sorry if that sounds gross but i wonder if anyone else ever gets this, cos no one else i know ever has)
It's fascinating. I was reading a little bit about the subject in wikipedia earlier. I think it was this treatment which happens to be embroilled in fights over patent rights. I'm making a note of it anyway.
My tonsillectomy had no benefit whatsoever for my BB. Nevertheless it has apparently helped some people, but I'd still strongly advise anyone considering this to leave it as a last resort. Its difficult to resist when you smell the odour coming from them, but i firmly believe that if any other anaerobic areas such as the tonsils were present in that vicinity, they'd become just as putrid.
A "sinus problem" is usually a sinus infection termed sinusitis. Normally caused by blockage of the sinus ostia that allow them to drain and breathe. Acute infections which clear by themselves if the reason for the ostia blockage (colds, viruses, allergies etc) is relieved should readily clear. But if this acute infection persists for long enough the tissues there can become physically damaged and remain a chronic condition even after the ostia open up. In this situation the condition can remain mostly symptomless, possibly leading to these bacterial biofilms developing. Considering that some ENT surgeons havent even heard of tonsilloliths, i dont know where that leaves us with the average ENT specialist with regards to symptomless people in our position.
I've noticed that many people on here, including myself, seem to report having a clear but definite PND, could this be a common connection?
I read that asthma is related to this situation, which i also have. Does anyone else have asthma? On some occasions ive also experienced the most excruciating pains during flights as the cabin pressure is raised or lowered. I've also experienced a copious thick black tar-like discharge suddenly when blowing my nose on two occasions in my life. These happened for no particular reason and right out of the blue, and felt like it was coming out of my sinuses and completely filled my tissue (sorry if that sounds gross but i wonder if anyone else ever gets this, cos no one else i know ever has)
Before my tonsillectomy, I had a constant colour to my pnd. It was mostly light yellow. I haven't had this discolouration in my pnd for a while now. This is another reason why I am glad I had the op. Tonsillectomy is not for everyone. This has been proven by the many people who claim to have been 'cured' of bb as a result of having different procedures done.halitosisux wrote:I've noticed that many people on here, including myself, seem to report having a clear but definite PND, could this be a common connection?
yea well I think its important for people to not- not to try something just because it doesnt work for everyone. There are multiple causes amongst us.
Like for example that tooth of yours halitosisux, when is that being rmoved btw? I am interested to see the results.
Also In another article I will dig up tommorrow, it was one of those wierd sites with small medical studies findings, strange but not made up, is just like a databank for them. Anyways it was a test of metronizadole. They basicly applied it to a number of subject, lots had their halitosis reduced/cured for the duration of the experiment, im not sure about after. But a few didnt. They concluded that most of the subjects had halitosis caused by bacteria, bu tthe ones that didnt respond were suffering from a 'hitherto unknown metabolic disorder'
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17716310
Like for example that tooth of yours halitosisux, when is that being rmoved btw? I am interested to see the results.
Also In another article I will dig up tommorrow, it was one of those wierd sites with small medical studies findings, strange but not made up, is just like a databank for them. Anyways it was a test of metronizadole. They basicly applied it to a number of subject, lots had their halitosis reduced/cured for the duration of the experiment, im not sure about after. But a few didnt. They concluded that most of the subjects had halitosis caused by bacteria, bu tthe ones that didnt respond were suffering from a 'hitherto unknown metabolic disorder'
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17716310
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halitosisux
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Hey asd,
I had it extracted yesterday morning! (27th nov). My jaw is bruised, it was far more work than the top teeth were to remove, but i was only 23 when i had those out, im now 38. There is a lot of blood etc still and my mouth is foul. I feel ill, no wonder i was given amoxicillin a week before (which i didnt take). I slept for most of this afternoon, feels like ive got flu.
I was going to wait for a few days before mentioning it so that i could start seeing the true effect it has had on my BB.
On the subject of metronidazole and the link to that experiment, that is a good way of isolating metabolic causes as opposed to true bacterial causes within the mouth. At least i know that its unlikely to be due to a metabolic reason in my case as metronidazole has an instant and unquestionable antibacterial effect in my mouth.
I had it extracted yesterday morning! (27th nov). My jaw is bruised, it was far more work than the top teeth were to remove, but i was only 23 when i had those out, im now 38. There is a lot of blood etc still and my mouth is foul. I feel ill, no wonder i was given amoxicillin a week before (which i didnt take). I slept for most of this afternoon, feels like ive got flu.
I was going to wait for a few days before mentioning it so that i could start seeing the true effect it has had on my BB.
On the subject of metronidazole and the link to that experiment, that is a good way of isolating metabolic causes as opposed to true bacterial causes within the mouth. At least i know that its unlikely to be due to a metabolic reason in my case as metronidazole has an instant and unquestionable antibacterial effect in my mouth.
k good luck mate. My mum said to me today, in the morning thta my breath smelt 'for the first timne ever' hmm. Im not sure why it was noticable to her so easily this time, either because I hadnt brushed my tongue for a few days I been home, or because my tonsils were sore. but the tonsils being sore could be because the tongue was overflowing, I really hope the tonsils are the cause of the skank on the tongue and not the other way round .
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halitosisux
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Thanks asd,
Its looking good so far.. even with all the blood, clotting and open wounds the odour situation in my mouth is no worse than it can normally get. My dentist used clove oil and i can still smell/taste it so at this stage its hard to tell anything apart from that.
Sorry to hear about your awful reminder, but its not like you didnt know already i suppose. While i still had my tonsils in i was utterly convinced it was my tonsils causing the skank on my tongue - i would have bet my life on it at the time. Maybe for some if the tonsil tissue is truly infected then it is.
Its looking good so far.. even with all the blood, clotting and open wounds the odour situation in my mouth is no worse than it can normally get. My dentist used clove oil and i can still smell/taste it so at this stage its hard to tell anything apart from that.
Sorry to hear about your awful reminder, but its not like you didnt know already i suppose. While i still had my tonsils in i was utterly convinced it was my tonsils causing the skank on my tongue - i would have bet my life on it at the time. Maybe for some if the tonsil tissue is truly infected then it is.
