Bile Reflux

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:46 am

About 2 months ago, I believe it was iva who mentioned bile reflux and we had some discussions together and did some research and found lots of information linking bile reflux to BB.

The other day I was talking to a forum member who said they had been diagnosed with bile reflux in early teens.

By chance i have also been talking to those who have tried raw food diets and who get very clear benefits from them.

Bile is a very alkaline substance. If this important part of the digestive system is not functioning correctly, for instance if it is refluxing back into the stomach and/or finding its way into the esophagus due to the same reasons as acid reflux would do, then this could be very significant.

If bile is mixing with acid and is refluxing into the throat, then the net result could be a non corrosive alkaline mixture, capable of altering (increasing?) the oral pH sufficiently to allow much higher levels of natural bacterial activity, on the tongue especially. There might be no reflux symptoms because the acid is neutralized by the bile. Lots of people say they have yellow or brown coloured coatings, bile is yellow i believe.

Problems relating to bile could be having an effect further down in the digestive system. The intestinal flora varies in species and quantities throughout the digestive tract, and chemical imbalances such as these could in theory have far reaching effects such as BB.

Why *might* raw foods be having such improvements on BB? There are many possible reasons. From what I understand bile is released from the gall-bladder to act like a soap breaking down fats for digestion. If we eat a very fatty meal then lots more bile is released. People even attempt to clear gall-stones by drinking a glass of oil, stimulating this action in the hope of expelling stones. Could it be that raw food diets are so low in fat that the quantity of bile released is so minimal that the BB is reduced?

This kind of problem fits in with those who have suddenly developed BB in life and know they were not born with it unlike TMAU and enzyme deficiencies.

I would also like to mention an experience. Both my mum and dad have had gall stones and had their gall bladders removed.
My mum's was a long time ago, so i dont remember, but my dad was about 10 years ago. Something occured to me the other night while discussing this... my dad used to suffer terribly with stomach problems many years ago, he had a perforated stomach ulcer and one time had to have emergency surgery on it.. he always used to complain about the contents of his stomach refluxing and acid rising, vomiting, etc etc. Incidentally I never remember him having BB, but i do remember he would sometimes have the most curious sort of irritating sour breath. It wasnt really foul but sometimes it would border on being so. It was as though his mouth had dried up. But its never occured to me until the other night that ever since he had his gall bladder out to deal with his stones, ive never smelled this odour again.

Need to do some research on this, please excuse my ignorance and simplistic descriptions. It Would be interesting to hear of any views on this subject.

iva · Post by **iva** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:02 pm

wonderful input, halitosisux

I am not sure gallbladder removal eliminates bile reflux, because in this case the liver is "connected" to the duodenum which means bile can easily reflux into the stomach.
Besides this forum- MedHelp-contains posts of people who have had galbladder removal surgery and experienced nausea, vomiting, etc.
There is this surgery for bile reflux, called Roux-en-Y anastomosis, which in my country is only performed by a few surgeons and only in case there is some very serious problems (obviously not bb)

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:17 pm

Thankyou iva.
I was suspecting that maybe some bile still continues to be produced and passed into the areas it's needed.
Regarding side effects of gall-bladder removal, i know 3 different people very closely who have had theirs removed and the only complaint ive heard is mild constipation.
I've not heard of this surgical procedure you mentioned, hopefully over the next few days i will have become more clued up and better able to discuss it further.

BTW has anyone ever tried fasting, which led to vomiting and vomit containing a lot of bile?
Just out of curiousity because i still dont yet know if this is something normal or not.
Has anyone experienced this even without fasting?

hopefulnblessed · Post by **hopefulnblessed** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:45 pm

Hali,

Yes, when I fast I get sick around the 2nd day and vomit alot of BRIGHT yellow bile!! I haven't fasted like that in a year, but I went on a 4 day fast with just water and I threw up Bile constantly the 2nd and part of the 3rd day of the fast! WHY IS THAT?? It was a church fast and I was the only one getting sick like that!! I am skinny, in case that matters.

Archimonde · Post by **Archimonde** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:53 pm

hopefulnblessed wrote:Hali,

Yes, when I fast I get sick around the 2nd day and vomit alot of BRIGHT yellow bile!! I haven't fasted like that in a year, but I went on a 4 day fast with just water and I threw up Bile constantly the 2nd and part of the 3rd day of the fast! WHY IS THAT?? It was a church fast and I was the only one getting sick like that!! I am skinny, in case that matters.

fascinating, i got that too on my 3rd and 4th day. Had to stop after vomotting like 30 times, was worried i'd get ill from dehydration.

I've been on water fasting forums and no one had ever heard of that before. It's definitely related to our condition, it's a big clue in my opinion. I think our BB might be caused by stagnant bile in our stomach 24/7. Which would also explain bloating.

@hopefulnblessed, does the vomitting ever stop?

hopefulnblessed · Post by **hopefulnblessed** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:00 pm

It stopped at the end of day 3. I was still sickly though. Everyone else was fine. I was probably dehydrated, but I just couldn't drink alot of water because I would throw up. I stopped fasting on day 4.

I am in my 40's but even in my 20's I would get sick on the 2nd day and throw up yellow bile!!! I really want to know why??

Archimonde · Post by **Archimonde** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:54 am

out of curiosity, how often does your church ask its members to fast and for how many days? I didn't know real fasting was practiced in any religion. Muslims say they do fasts but it's not even real fasting, they still eat a meal in the evening.

hopefulnblessed · Post by **hopefulnblessed** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:22 am

Christians fast as well. I am a christian and fasting is done as each individual person feels led. On occasion the Pastor may call a global fast which includes everyone that wants to join in and fast and pray for a specific time.

The longest that I have ever gone was 7 days. I only got sick for the first few days and then it went away. I personally know some people that fasted for 40 days on water only.

Archimonde · Post by **Archimonde** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:50 am

I see. Grats on 7 days, that takes insane will power. Fasting was the most difficult thing i've ever tried, 4 days of pure torture. I could never do 7. Anyway, how was your breath after 7 days?

Snobuni · Post by **Snobuni** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:52 pm

Apparently increased production of bile during the first few days of a fast is fairly normal, as is vomiting up this bile:

''The secretion of bile customarily continues during the early days of a fast. Indeed, it may be secreted in increased amounts. This is likely to be regurgitated into the stomach where it causes nausea and vomiting. In such cases the bile is invariably bad-smelling''.

I suppose the question is, do bb suffers have increased amounts of bile at all times?

hopefulnblessed · Post by **hopefulnblessed** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:01 pm

It was so long ago that I really don't remember how my breath was.

thf · Post by **thf** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:28 am

halitosisux,

That's really good information. I was treated once for acid reflux and it really helped, i have also be told that my body produces too much bile (i still don't know if that's possible). I've always had issues with digestion, can't really go into detail but I've always known something was not operating quite right. So what you say in your post really makes sense to me.

I've started realizing about 6 mos ago that my bb had something to do with food at first i thought it was wheat/gluten so i cut that from my diet, didn't help. Recently learned about tmau so i've been doing a raw food diet for the last three weeks, not sure if it's helping at this point i rarely speak to people. Hopefully it will give me some relief.

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:52 am

thf thanks, and to everyone please keep posting, every bit of information is important.
Too much bile produced could be a factor in itself. Thinking about it.. the acidity of the stomach acid, the alkalinity of bile and its role in neutralizing the acid.. how susceptible microbial populations are to the pH of their environment.. its feasible they are linked in some way.

Regarding the number of CH sufferers who reported (in another thread) that they are underweight, i wonder if there is any connection regarding the important role that bile plays in the digestion of fats?

"Since bile increases the absorption of fats, it is an important part of the absorption of the fat-soluble vitamins D, E, K and A."

"In addition, past the small intestine (which is normally responsible for absorbing fat from food) the gastrointestinal tract and gut flora are not adapted to processing fats, leading to problems in the distal parts of the intestine." So if fats havent been dealt with yet at this early stage of digestion, they wont be dealt with.

Could it be that due to some abnormality there is not enough bile getting to the places its supposed to be getting to? And as a consequence it is in some way able to reflux into the throat? Or find its way into the bloodstream or have some overall effect on the oral pH? (may only need a minimally high or low pH variation from the normal) (bile is highly alkaline remember)

Also, it is when bile mixes with partially digested food within the duodenum that it neutralizes stomach acids due to its high alkalinity. If for some reason there wasnt enough bile reaching the duodenum, the acid might not be reducing sufficiently enough, potentially leading to extremely far reaching consequences on the intestinal flora as well as the delicate linings of the remaining digestive tract (IBS symptoms?)

Correct me if im wrong, but from what i can gather, it is not normal for there ever to be bile inside the stomach. Sometimes bile can reflux into the stomach from the duodenum DUE to vomiting and might not necessarily have anything to do with the cause OF vomiting.

Reflux is common. Most people will have some form of stomach reflux from time to time. Liver problems, gall stones, ulcers, etc are all common. Why cant something this simple be the reason. Just because maybe it hasnt been fully researched with regards to chronic BB.

I know what im saying is a bit scattery, but i think once interested people get posting more and more relating to themselves and this concept, we will have a better understanding and a clearer picture.

Remember, i think we are talking about ORAL BACTERIA in most cases of chronic BB. Where there is clearly detectable bacterial overactivity on the dorsum of the tongue. This can be due to so many different reasons, and pH altering reflux can give rise to such a situation. The high feasibility of this happening because of reflux and some of the clues lately, this just has to be investigated.

Please post who has ruled out dental issues and chronic sinusitis, who fall under the category of underweight/unable to gain weight.

thf · Post by **thf** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:36 pm

You've really done your homework. I have ruled out all dental issues. I've been told my more than one dentist that this is "not in my mouth". I've seen two ent's and there are no sinus issues. My current ent is having me do an mri just to make sure, but from all the other test i've had done this has nothing to do with my sinuses.

Something you did mention in your first post that i noticed is h.pylori. I have or had that (i heard you never really get rid of it), I was treated for it twice, not sure if it could be a fact in all this. I was thinking of finding another gastro dr and getting tested for it and the ulcers again, and basically just have my gut completely checked.

hopefulnblessed · Post by **hopefulnblessed** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:24 pm

After having my wisdom teeth extracted my breath improved greatly. The fecal order is gone. But my breath is still not totally like normal people. I still have bouts of not being fresh.

I am CONVINCED that the stomach has a part to play. I eat very well. Always have. Fries, burgers, etc. I am 5'5 and weigh 104. I am healthy, have had 2 children with no complications. I agree with Hali that my body does not store fat like most people. I think I am going to make an appt with a gastro. I have excellent insurance so I might as well use it.