Bad Breath Halitosis Forum

All,

I have solved my BB problem and I’m submitting my theory, as it pertains to my situation, for your review. Perhaps my circumstances match yours and my remedy may therefore be effective in your case.

• [Some cases] of BB are caused by oral bacteria that persist after employing ordinary dental hygiene techniques, i.e. brushing teeth and tongue, flossing
• These techniques are mechanically effective only on the surfaces contacted
• The teeth of BB sufferers may have microscopic porosity that is above-average in the numbers of pores and/or above-average in the depth of the pores, and/or above-average in the diameter of the pores – thus providing a safe-haven for micron-sized bacteria that rapidly repopulate after employing regular hygiene techniques, as these deep-seated, bacteria are not sheared-off when brushing or flossing
• These bacteria are bathed in nutrient-rich, i.e. protein/carbohydrate rich, saliva and biofilms are rapidly reestablished, fouling breath
• The tooth-porosity is closely analogous to tonsil-crypts that also harbor anaerobic bacteria
• The bacteria that dwell in tooth pores are more-productive in exacerbating BB, versus tonsils, as the total area of the bio-reactive sites is hundreds-of-times larger than the outlet-area of the tonsil crypts
• For those with above-average porosity chemical methods of oral hygiene must be added to mechanical/physical methods of oral hygiene to effectively reduce the anaerobic population of bacteria that survive in the pores.
• I brush with a dry mixture of table salt & baking soda placed on a damp toothbrush, floss, and brush my tongue.
• I next swirl a full-strength (3%) solution of hydrogen peroxide several times until the bubbling effervescence of oxygen-release from my tooth surfaces stops. This bubbling, oxygen-release from my tooth surfaces is what causes me to ask if anaerobic bacteria, surviving in deep pores was the cause of my problem all along? It is the catalase, in the bacteria, that cause H2O2 to regenerate diatomic oxygen gas. When the bubbling effervescense stops, I believe I’ve destroyed a sufficient number of bacteria to restore fresh breath
• The final step in supporting the theory is to have my teeth sealed and test if the need for daily peroxide contact is no longer necessary.

Hi searching. Interesting reading.
Do you know of any way to actually test how much bacterial activity might be going on with any particular tooth or tooth surface?
Pepto Bismol apparently turns black in areas where there are high levels of VSCs (the reason why it sometimes causes temporary blackening of the tongue). This could be used as a measure during your experiments.
Also, does using Sensodyne type toothpastes make any difference? These fill in microscopic holes in the teeth, so you would expect it to have some effect on any microbial havens.

Also, this theory is extremely plausible when you consider how easily dentures can give you bad breath. I had an uncle who had dentures and he'd be completely BB free until he put his dentures in. Those dentures were completely clean to look at, and you would think that they'd have to really smell badly to give you BB once inside the mouth, but this wasnt the case. He was a very conscious person who would have known that his dentures smelled bad outside his mouth (if they did) so therefore it wasnt likely for them to have done so. He simply wasnt employing effective enough disinfection.

Using undiluted hydrogen peroxide can't be safe in the long run. How long have you been doing this?

halitosisux wrote:Do you know of any way to actually test how much bacterial activity might be going on with any particular tooth or tooth surface?

Hello Halitosisux,

I haven't begun quantifying (beneficial or unwanted) bacterial activity. Until now I have only observed the resulting prolonged-reduction in biofilm on my teeth throughout the day.

halitosisux wrote:does using Sensodyne type toothpastes make any difference?

If this theory of porosity is correct, I agree that pore closure should help mitigate BB. I have begun using desensitizing toothpaste(s) attempting to re-mineralize my teeth. I think it is too early to determine if the toothpaste is a sufficient replacement for the 3% peroxide rinsing.

Sputnik wrote:Using undiluted hydrogen peroxide can't be safe in the long run. How long have you been doing this?

Sputnik,

I've been regularly using 3% Hydrogen Peroxide solution for about one year. Please see the document at the following link that comments on the dangers/safety of prolonged use with respect to peroxide concentration:
http://www.ada.org.au/App_CmsLib/Media/ ... 097500.pdf

Searching, thanks for the reply and good luck with your progress. I think the densensitizing toothpaste is worth a try for everyone on here at the very least.

hi searching , thank you for the info. i just have couple of questions
do you have nose odor ? and when you use hp does your mouth and tongue burn? and how many times do you do hp a day ?
thanks searching

guzler wrote:searching, do you have nose odor?

I don't think so.

guzler wrote:when you use hp does your mouth and tongue burn?

If I use the HP full strength (3%) it can inflame mucus membranes if applied for too long a period - when my mouth is already clean, i.e. when the plaque layer is already stripped away. Occasionally I will dilute the HP to 50% or more if I feel the need for a less-intensive cleaning. If you experience any discomfort please stop immediately, rinse with water, and discontinue use.

guzler wrote:how many times do you do hp a day?

Once or twice, when first brushing in the morning.

Searching,
I have never heard of teeth having pores, even microscopic ones. Isn't it much more likely that the anaerobic bacteria are located in the grooves of the tounge between the papillae (taste buds)? These bacteria can't stand oxygen, and the surface of the teeth is always exposed to air. On the other hand, on the tounge the bacteria are able to create a coating (which many of us seem to have) and this coating acts as a protective shield. There is never any white coating on anyone's teeth, therefore it can be assumed that the bacteria are not there.

Phantasist wrote:Searching,
I have never heard of teeth having pores, even microscopic ones. Isn't it much more likely that the anaerobic bacteria are located in the grooves of the tounge between the papillae (taste buds)? These bacteria can't stand oxygen, and the surface of the teeth is always exposed to air. On the other hand, on the tounge the bacteria are able to create a coating (which many of us seem to have) and this coating acts as a protective shield. There is never any white coating on anyone's teeth, therefore it can be assumed that the bacteria are not there.

Phantasist,

Good comments, thank you. I agree that anaerobic bacteria teem in the depths of the tongue. I ask if anaerobic bacteria can [also] survive as biofilms on, and in, teeth?

Bacterial biofilms on teeth start as plaque and can eventually harden as tartar. Bacteria living on teeth, and the corroding organic acids they produce, are a cause of tooth decay. It is one of the reasons we brush teeth, to shear-off the growing colonies of bacteria adhered to teeth.

Oxygen saturates water (saliva) at only 7 parts-per-million and it is rapidly depleted by aerobic microorganisms, leaving an anaerobic environment at the depths of the biofilms.

Please see the micrographs in the following link http://www.teethwhiteningreviews.com/fa ... ffects.php. They reveal microscopic porosity (demineralization) in teeth. I'm asking if these pores can harbor bacteria, immune from the shear of tooth brushing?

With the positive experience with xylitose (look at the thread cured with sugar") I think your hypothesis with micropores and biofilms explains a lot. But you can't use toxic desinfection methods in your mouth for a long time. By using pure xylitose my teeth became free of this bacterial biofilm and it could be that xylitose helps to close this micropores, because my teeth became more white.
So for me xylitose is the better therapy than Hydrogen Peroxide.

Look also to this Link

http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/935

Searching,
You make a good point about plaque and demineralization of teeth. I'm not saying you're wrong, but even if I get rid of all my plaque (of which I have very little because of all the brushing), I would still be stuck with a ton of coating on my tounge which is perfect protection for millions of anaerobic bacteria.
Also, I have a friend who had so much plaque on his teeth that the dentist had to clean it in TWO session! Would you believe this guy never has any bad breath. We have all been through this, and it's enough to drive you insane.

One thing Ive realized is even though we floss that cannot be efficient enough. I cannot find any o those super small brushs that go between teeth at store Im going to order some. Could be why coating comes back so quick. I also have major space between my teeth