Spin the Bottle

[BreathofLife]

Introduction:

Hello everyone! I am glad to have found this community. I was here once before for a brief time but quickly left because I felt that hanging around these forums too much might lead me to becoming hopeless and sad about my breath situation. I am a naturally more positive person and I don't want that to change. I thought I'd come back at a time when I was ready to develop a plan. Hey, it might not cure my breath problem but I know that being proactive about solving it will allow me to feel empowered in many ways.

At the age of 12 a boy confirmed what I had always suspected (from an even earlier age) during a game of spin the bottle when he exclaimed, "Ewww! You have the worst breath ever!" Even in elementary school I always thought that it might not be fresh like the other girls in my class. You know, the kind of fresh breath that doesn't travel far and smells like oxygen with just a hint of mild baloney? I long for that kind of breath.

I suspect that as a younger kid maybe I just didn't have the kind of lung capacity to expel my breath far enough to offend anyone, but the empty pit feeling in my stomach was there then, it was there when the boy told me during the spin the bottle game, and it's still there now--and I'm 40.

Both an enemy and a best friend have further confirmed that my breath is bad. People have asked if I farted. A young kid told me, "I can smell your face." I was holding a baby and an older kid sitting next to me suggested that I check the baby's diaper. There was nothing in the diaper, of course, but I knew what she got a whiff of.

What I am doing:

I follow all the recommended guidelines for promoting good health, I eat well, exercise daily, brush and floss after meals, see my dentist twice a year, drink water and change my toothbrush every 3 months. I feel pretty fantastic most of the time but the breath is still there. Based on what I've read from other posters here, I probably am a 5 on "The Really Bad Breath" scale with 10 being the worst. It smells like poo, yes, but certain situations are worse than others. I don't stink up the entire room but at about a 2-4 foot range, I notice others beginning to drop their gaze downward toward my lips in a surprised manner: The "Is that your breath?!?!?" look. I have even had dogs cozy up to me and then sniff intensely at my mouth. (Has this happened to anyone else?)

Things I would like to investigate further:

I strongly believe that my breath problems are emanating from my lungs or my GI tract. I lived in "Third World" countries during most of my developmental years (the child of a teacher at American schools for US govt. workers etc.) and was exposed to many things more easily than I might have been stateside (but that do happen in the U.S.) Here are some things that could relate to it and that I want to investigate:

1. Exposure to the TB germ. I don't know exactly when but I think I've been testing positive since I was about 10 (upon returning home to the US.) I have never had active TB however. In my late 20s/early 30s I was required to take (precautionary) 9 mos of Isoniazid (INH), ironically for an overseas job I was applying for. I secretly hoped it might cure the breath somehow, but it didn't.

2. I had a case of roundworms also around the age of 9 or 10 that was treated in the U.S. Apparently roundworm and pinworm are not so uncommon here (in the U.S.) either. I'll have to ask my mom but the only treatment I remember from the Doctor was intense garlic supplements. I even had to put it in my shoes. There was probably some other pill but all I know is they were gone shortly thereafter. I was never in pain and would never have even known they were there if one hadn't...okay...TMI....anyway I do still wonder if those parasites caused irreversible damage to my young intestines that is allowing the fecal smell to "escape" from them.

3. Around puberty, I suddenly became plagued with boils or carbuncles as they are medically referred to. I shouldn't say "plagued" but it sure felt like it. It's more like one really super duper huge painful boil somewhere near sweat glands (I'm clean!) every 3-6 months. Generally though, I have at least one or more smaller cysts in the armpit or groin that I've stopped noticing anymore--they've been that much of a constant presence in my life.

4. When I do get colds it ALWAYS starts as a really bad sore throat and then ends up feeling "bronchial." I'm not sick often though. But I feel this may be an ENT clue.

5. My tongue has never been pink like a baby's tongue. It's not grossly coated with white either but there is a thin grey-ish film on it. (And brushing it and all those Dr. Katz products didn't help.)

So I am here because even though (despite the 5 things above) I am really a picture of good physical and mental health I have decided that this is the time that I'm actually going to start to take more charge of my health. I do most things right, but I could stand to improve. I backslide sometimes when it comes to eating whole, healthy foods. I try not to beat myself up about it because--well because I need to be good to myself.

Anyway, I just wanted to tell my story and introduce myself. If anything I have said resonates, please let me know. I am going to start taking baby steps with trying to go through the process of elimination with foods. Whatever this is, I've lived a healthy wonderful life with it for at least 35 of my 40 years even with the social stigma from my breath AND other aspects of my identity, so I don't believe myself to be "sick." I do believe that there is possibly something going on where something is out of equilibrium or perhaps an illness or infection that I once had "turned on" or "turned off" some other genetic thing. Very scientific, I know.

So on today, May 19th, 2011, I'm going to take my first step to trying to improve my own condition without subjecting myself to anything that might end up being more deleterious to my physical and emotional health in the future.

I was thinking perhaps cutting out sugar cold turkey would set me up for failure. So I will continue to eat fruit for now and try to give up sweet baked goods for one week. I'm glad to have a place to check-in and report progress as I try to rule-out more foods from the list. I am open to any thoughts. I have read a lot of pain and heartbreak in these forums. I sincerely hope that each day we all can find a sliver of hope to keep us living and breathing. Thanks!

BreathofLife

[halitosisux]

Hi. Do you have any gastrointestinal symptoms?
I dont know how effective garlic as a sole treatment for parasites. The fact you became infested in the first place could mean you were exposed at some point to other parasitic types and may still have them or be continually vulnerable to re-infestations if you are still exposed to the same environment.

Do you have any reasons not to suspect TMAU?

[BreathofLife]

Hi. Do you have any gastrointestinal symptoms?
I dont know how effective garlic as a sole treatment for parasites. The fact you became infested in the first place could mean you were exposed at some point to other parasitic types and may still have them or be continually vulnerable to re-infestations if you are still exposed to the same environment.

Do you have any reasons not to suspect TMAU?

Hi halitosisux!

Although that parasite infection was 30 years ago, I'm not ruling out a reoccurence or the residual effects of it. (I'm sure I had some other medication but since I was a kid, my most vivid memory is of garlic pills all the time and garlic in my shoes!) I seem to recall having x-rays taken to confirm their presence and then x-rays taken to confirm their absence after treatment. This does not mean that a completely different infestation couldn't be going on right now and I do plan to check that out too.

I am usually bloated. And by bloated I mean, not in any pain or discomfort but always with "the bubble guts" I call them. Kind of like corn is popping in my gut every so often. This is especially the case right before a cold is coming on but it is even happening right now as I type.

As far as TMAU. I have no reason to suspect it's not that actually besides the fact that my odor isn't fishy but poopy. In some preliminary reading it seems that some include other odors in TMAU? Am I right about this? I'm excited to hear that in recent years it has been getting more attention and there is more research on it. It appears that I don't live too great a distance from one of the testing centers. Going there is going to be included in my action plan.

The only thing that keeps me from going in to my doctor's office and demanding a battery of tests that I'm sure they will say aren't necessary is that I have a high-deductible insurance and could end up paying a fortune out of pocket. So I have to go a little slower than I would like, but I will get there. Thank you for responding.

[Susie]

BreathofLIfe,
Oh, I can so relate! My sister used to say the dog loved me best.....wonder why? LOL I never told her any different haha

[BreathofLife]

BreathofLIfe,
Oh, I can so relate! My sister used to say the dog loved me best.....wonder why? LOL I never told her any different haha

Hi Susie!

Now that's interesting your sister said the dog loved you best. Dogs' sense of smell is so much better than ours so I wonder...

[meowkity1]

my neighbors dog barks when Im ouside sweeping or when I have to talk to my kids outside

[halitosisux]

You're welcome BreathofLife.
BTW just to be clear, when I said "sole treatment" I meant the "only treatment" and not the sole of your foot. I can only imagine that garlic was put in your shoes because parasites can be picked up and enter the body through the feet, from walking on contaminated areas.

Its interesting how your bubble guts worsens right before getting a cold. If its parasites in your gut, it may be be immune system related. Does this happen when you get stressed too?

Since this was all such a long time ago you may have forgotten what other medications and tests were performed or been completely unaware at the time.

Definitely ask for your stools to be tested and for relevant blood tests.

There are many different manifestations that relate to TMAU. The reason why its called fish odour syndrome is because it was the pungent odour of rotting fish on some people that led scientists to try to discover what is causing this extremely rare phenomenon. And this very rare form of TMAU, which causes fishy odours that can stink a whole house out is when your body has virtually zero ability to "neutralize" the trimethylamine that gets into your blood from your guts. But there are other manifestations of TMAU that can lead to much less concentration of TMA to get into your blood. And TMA at low concentrations can smell of a whole range of bizarre odours, particularly garbage and sewage odour.

Malory is a member of this forum who never imagined that TMAU might be the cause of his BB, and spent 15 fruitless years going through every possibility before deciding to get tested for TMAU and getting a positive diagnosis. In the UK its a free test.

[BreathofLife]

my neighbors dog barks when Im ouside sweeping or when I have to talk to my kids outside

Hi meowkitty...

Maybe he just likes you?

[BreathofLife]

You're welcome BreathofLife.
BTW just to be clear, when I said "sole treatment" I meant the "only treatment" and not the sole of your foot. I can only imagine that garlic was put in your shoes because parasites can be picked up and enter the body through the feet, from walking on contaminated areas.

Its interesting how your bubble guts worsens right before getting a cold. If its parasites in your gut, it may be be immune system related. Does this happen when you get stressed too?.

Malory is a member of this forum who never imagined that TMAU might be the cause of his BB, and spent 15 fruitless years going through every possibility before deciding to get tested for TMAU and getting a positive diagnosis. In the UK its a free test.

HAHA..it was A sole treatment but not THE sole treatment. That is too funny. At the time I was back in the States so I don't think they were too concerned with me picking up more parasites from the ground. I think there was something said about the compounds in garlic being so strong that they can be absorbed through your skin; that if you put a garlic clove in your shoe, your breath will smell like garlic within hours. I might have been not wanting to take them orally and that could have been offered as an alternative.


Did you mean to say "if it's not parasites in your gut"? So I do not have much stress except for one situation...flying...and when I do it's like a popcorn factory in there. I always chalked it up to being a fear response. This however still would not explain all the years as a child and pre-teen with this condition though. I don't remember the bubble guts until well into my adulthood. I do think it isinteresting that the first time I remember being told about bad breath was within months of mmy first menstruation.

I definitely want to get the TMAU test. It is my understanding that the testers might discourage me from doing it though (they seem to think that most cases come from the tongue? Anyway, has anyone been keeping statistics of what percentage of folks from here that have taken this test have come back positive or is it all anecdotal at this point?

I just want to say that the general tone of most of the posts here seem so much better than the last time I was here. More people seemed to be focused on finding a treatment (or at least a cause) and things don't seem as hopeless feeling. Is that just me or has there been a paradigm shift?

[halitosisux]

Lol, bless your sole..

BTW, you've reminded me of something that happened to me a long time ago during my BB battles. I was convinced after reading a book written by a crook doctor who works in London's Harley Street area, about a theory that every ailment in the body related to blocked lymph drainage and that by massaging these blocked lymph channels you restore drainage and restore health. In this book he mentioned that one particular ailment, chronic athlete's foot, was caused by blocked lymph nodes. I didnt have much faith in this concept but I used to do a lot of swimming at the time and my skin between my toes would crack so easily. Now I was convinced I had athlete's foot, so just incase it might have anything at all to do with being a cause of my BB, I bought some standard antifungal cream and started using it on my feet. I was really surprised to see an instant unmistakeable improvement to my BB for a number of days. I attribute now to a similar experience that someone else on this forum had when they put antifungal cream on their chest. I think it absorbs through the skin and results in reducing the fungus in the mouth. My tongue was completely pink when this was going on and this is why I think my breath improved. Fungus becomes resistant to the antifungal after a while, just like bacteria do with antibiotics. We can weaken these microorganisms through the use of drugs and allow the body to heal itself and sustain it's health, but we cant permanently wipe them out altogether.

Anyway, no, I meant "if it IS parasites in your gut". If you have parasites in your body, whether its in your internal systems such as your internal organs, or in your external systems such as the gut, your immune system is constantly working to defend against them. It's therefore a possibility that when you are feeling run down and your defenses are weakened (such as the onset of a cold) these parasites may gain in their strength and in their ability to affect you, resulting in worsened symptoms, like your bubble guts. Its just a thought though. Stress is another factor which has been proven to weaken the body's defenses.

So you dont get any odours from your tongue? Where do you think its coming from in your case?

BTW, it is known that TMAU can result or be affected by hormonal changes that can take place. If I remember correctly, a lot of women with TMAU say that it worsens during menstruation. That may relate to hormones, but there are other possible reasons too.

I dont know of anyone who has reported that they've taken a TMAU test on this forum except for malory, who came back positive. Caramiamine also has TMAU, but I dont know whether this has been confirmed by tests or not.

Caramiamine has loads of good useful information on TMAU if you search the forum.

[Phantasist]

Halitosisux,
You say that you were able to reduce your tongue coating and bad breath by putting antifungal cream between your toes?
I was under the impression that your BB was cured when a partially erupted wisdom tooth that had created a gum pocket was removed. How does one thing tie in with the other? And could this mean that you had a fungus in your body?

[halitosisux]

Yes it reduced my tongue coating. "Live" Yoghurt did the same.
With less coating there was less absorbance of skank on my tongue so it lessened the BB. This was while I still had the wisdom tooth and even before I had any idea of the discharge coming from the gum around it.

We all have fungus living in and on our bodies.

[Phantasist]

Halitosisux,
So what you're saying is that the antifungal cream between your toes reduced the white coating on your tongue. This would mean that the bacteria living in the gum pocket near your wisdom tooth was not causing the white coating on your tongue. Possibly it had nothing to do with it.
This is important because my theory that the anaerobic bacteria are causing the white coating in order to protect themselves from oxygen and the antibacterial substances in the saliva may be wrong.
It could be the other way around. The bacteria are NOT causing the coating, but the coating is still causing the bacteria to proliferate. As you know, my experiment showed that the coating itself has no odor outside the mouth. But indirectly it is responsible. If the coating is eliminated, the saliva will have direct contact with the dorsal surface of the tongue and keep the anaerobes in check, thereby eliminating bad breath. The question now becomes: What is causing the white coating? Scraping the tongue only helps for a few hours, because it always comes back, so we absolutely must get at the underlying cause.

[halitosisux]

Yes, I'm saying the antifungal cream applied between my toes appeared to make my tongue more pink and clean looking. The effect wore off after a while, which I assume was because the fungus develops resistance to the drug (whatever it is in Canestan cream). I believe this resulted in a reduction of my BB simply because there was less sponge sitting on my tongue to absorb the skank pouring out of the gum pocket.

Exactly the same thing could happen wherever there is a foul discharge that is finding its way onto the tongue surface, such as from the sinuses, or if the saliva itself smells from gut/bloodborne pathways that find their way into the mouth.

I have never said that the bacteria living in the gum pocket around my wisdom tooth was causing any of my tongue coating, but bacteria (biofilm formation similar to dental plaque) may well be a factor. As long as I wasnt regularly scraping my tongue or using antibacterial mouthwashes, my tongue would look what I consider as normal.

Tongue coatings, as far as my own understanding goes, are purely the dead cells at the ends of the tongue papillae and the fungus which thrive around these dead cells and of the actual papillae themselves, especially if they are damaged by excessive scraping. Our immune system probably plays a role here because the buds of the papillae are blood filled living tissue, so if the immune system is weak in any way then its feasible that fungus may thrive here more than they would in a mouth where the immune system is stronger. That's probably why vitamin C, zinc and B12 helps reduce tongue coating because they are essential for a healthy immune system.

And of course, a heavily coated tongue may be the sole cause of BB in some cases. As you've said, this layer will shield off the anaerobic bacteria and allow excessive amounts of bacterial activity to take place which results in excessive production of foul chemicals which the coating will absorb and release in your breath. Dehydration and vitamin/mineral deficiencies can lead to thicker than normal tongue coatings. As hard as it is to accept, excessive tongue scraping only forms a vicious circle of thicker and more stubborn coating to form. Light scraping and live yoghurt soaked into the tongue surface to naturally help reduce the fungal presense along with vitamin C and Zinc and B12 are the most effective way to reduce it.

[Phantasist]

Halitosisux,

There are at least two inconsistencies in your explanation. I know you have stuck to this theory for quite some time, but let's look at the facts:

1) The tongue coating cannot just be dead cells from the papillae, because if that were the case, then everyone in the world would have to have a tongue coating. Most people do not have it. Therefore something else is causing it.

2) The tongue coating does not absorb any foul smelling chemicals, because as I have shown, the coating does not have an odor when removed from the mouth. I tested it twice and could not detect an odor (despite the fact that I can smell my own breath.)

I think we have to resolve these questions, if we're going to make any kind of progress.
I also have a problem with your assertion that everyone has fungi living in their mouths. I think that would be highly dangerous.