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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:38 pm
by halitosisux
Aydinmur, it's always good to know you are around.
Have any of your patients ever turned out to have TMAU? If so, are their bad breath symptoms and experiences much different to those of your patients who do not have TMAU?
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:18 pm
by mike987
If one doesn't have TMAU, will Choline have any effect on the breath?
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:37 pm
by halitosisux
I've read somewhere that if you eat enough eggs you will smell like someone who has TMAU. This is whether you have TMAU or not, because the body can only deal with so much trimethylamine.
Mike, I think it totally depends on how much choline you take. There will always be a point where even a non-TMAU person will smell if they have too much choline.
But, going by what Aydinmur has proposed there, if your smell enhances after the third day taking 3 tablets, then think TMAU.
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:31 pm
by MissPretty
My whole family has bad breath. How can this be?
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:24 am
by halitosisux
Thankyou for the reply Aydinmur, lots of food for thought there.
Could you please elaborate on what you mean when you say that sulphur gases decrease in the mouth. Do you mean that people with TMAU generally have reduced sulphur gases in their mouth?
Also, what signs in blood profile?
Also, the fact that Metronidazole ceases bad TMAU odour, true also in most type-1 cases because of the effect of metronidazole on the oral microbial flora, could this indicate that where metronidazole has no effect on odour, that the bad breath is less to do with microbial flora in those cases and more to do with chronic infection somewhere in the body that the metronidazole cannot even make a dent on - such as the sinuses?
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:48 am
by halitosisux
I've said it a number of times over the last year that it would be a good experiment to try choline tablets to see whether it exacerbates your odours. Likewise, if it does exacerbate it, to try a diet that is low on choline to see what effect that has.
@misspretty, apart from the fact that BB is fairly common anyway and your family may just be a statistical cluster, within a family there might be inherited traits that predispose the entire family to more susceptibility to the kind of problems that can lead to bad breath.
There may also be more to it than that.
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:45 am
by caramiamine98
It’s important to note that it is possible to have TMAU and have BB and no body odour. There are different types of TMAU. Primary TMAU (TMAU1) is genetic and the result of a faulty autosomal recessive gene and Secondary TMAU (TMAU2) the acquired type is due to having too much intestinal trimethylamine (TMA) due to an overgrowth of TMA-generating bacteria.
TMAU1 and TMAU2 possible sub-types:
a. TMAU1 transient neonatal – possible delay in switch from fetal enzyme
FMO2 to FMO3 TMA oxidation, but resolves during development.
b. TMAU1 severe childhood - parenting / schooling problems are possible.
c. TMAU1 adulthood – probably presented in childhood; long-term sociopathy.
d. TMAU1 heterozygote – may present only during dietary load / menses.
e. TMAU1 very mild – ‘double dose’ DNA polymorphisms – TMA borderline.
f. TMAU1 FMO3 mutation proven TMAU1 with increased TMO (like TMAU2)
a. TMAU2 severe neonatal -‘sepsis’ massive TMA responds to antibiotics.
b. TMAU2 childhood - antibiotic eradication prevents school / social problems.
c. TMAU2 adulthood – may have long history of odour, eradication possible.
d. TMAU2 intermittent – difficult diagnosis without precursor load.
e. TMAU2 due to UTI – presents biochemically as TMAU1 (urine-only odour).
f. TMAU2 due to renal or hepatic dysfunction – presents as TMAU1.
http://www.bloodbornebodyodorandhalitos ... -from.html
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:47 am
by halitosisux
That's really interesting. Could that be due to some kind of chemical reaction taking place in the mouth with secreted trimethylamine contained in the saliva and the sulphurous compounds?
Perhaps a better way to describe what I meant about the metronidazole is that if a person with bad breath does not notice any difference when they take metronidazole, would that mean that TMAU could be ruled out in those cases?
Where metronidazole does not make any difference to a person's bad breath, does that give any clues to you?
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:16 pm
by Larc400
aydinmur wrote:
Yes.
They smell methylated amines but not sulfur. They have lesser sulfur gases in their mouth. Its reason not clear. In a study (Whittle CL, 2007), oral sulfur gases compared between Tmau people and healthly subjects.
COS 0.416 - 1.08 (ng/10ml)
H2S 0.83 - 2.17
CH3SH 0-1.97
(CH3)2S 0 - 0.21 (tmau and control respectively)
Will a machine like the OralChroma detect bad breath caused by TMAU?
http://www.fisinc.co.jp/en/products/oralchroma.html
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:36 am
by potty_mouth
No, unfortunately it won't.
The Mebo research test being conducted with Menssana should show up these gases. I think they will be conducting tests in London, which is probably the nearest to you.
viewtopic.php?t=4046&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:36 am
by halitosisux
Potty_mouth, I can't remember if I've asked you this already, but can a GC be used to measure the amount of TMA in a breath sample?
If it can, then can a GC be used to diagnose whether a form of TMAU is responsible for a person's breath odour?
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:57 am
by potty_mouth
halitosisux wrote:Potty_mouth, I can't remember if I've asked you this already, but can a GC be used to measure the amount of TMA in a breath sample?
If it can, then can a GC be used to diagnose whether a form of TMAU is responsible for a person's breath odour?
Yes, these guys appear to have done it:
http://iopscience.iop.org/1752-7163/4/2 ... D533556.c3
I'd have to do a bit more reading to see what kind of levels of TMA are blown by TMAU patients, as I doubt that there is an official threshold which would diagnose TMAU. You would also have to check levels of other gases to be sure they weren't significant, but that can be done with the GC too.
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:35 pm
by halitosisux
Amazing how this technology which has been around for decades, hasn't been better utilized to help people with odour problems, except for creating machines with limited capability purely to help dentists sell certain expensive breath products.
Have you ever tried analysing your own breath with one potty_mouth? I find it all quite fascinating and if I had the money I'd buy a GC just for the hell.
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:10 pm
by lost1234
Hal, I remember reading one of aydinmurs older post. He said if metro has no effect on breath, to look at type #, or type # as a cause. Sorry not sure what types he said but I remember this because metro had no effect on my bad breath. But there is a post I believe he says it
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:59 pm
by halitosisux
Hopefully Aydinmur will eventually reply and reiterate what he knows about this.
As far as I know, Metronidazole will help if you have type-1 BB because it's effective against the types of anaerobic bacteria in the mouth known to cause BB.
We also know that Metronidazole could also be (temporarily) effective against chronic infections anywhere in the body that might be causing bad breath, such as helicobacter pylori or perhaps a chronic infection in the sinuses. And we also know that metro can reduce the bacterial load in the gut and reduce any bloodborne BB if it relates in some way to the gut flora. It really needs a specialist like Aydinmur who can work with their patient to discover what's happening.