Chronic halitosis, Rhinitis, PND, bacterial imbalance

[joeP]

Hi,

I've been having chronic bad breath for almost 10 years. Initially just from the mouth, a few years later, also from the nose. It increased year after year and now is "extremely" "extremely" (!) strong.

I use twice a day:
Sensodyne toothpaste to brush,
Dental floss,
Orabrush Tongue cleaner dipped in chlorhexidine mouthwash
Multivitamins tabs,
Vitamin C and Zinc tabs,
Dentyl ph to rinse and gargle,
Smartmouth to rinse and gargle

I drink 3-4 cups of green tea and some cleansing tea with lemon and ginger. I also eat a portion of activia yogurt every day during breakfast. I chew airwaves gum and drink plenty of water all day to keep the mouth moist.

I've been to the FBC in london a year ago, who were useless. I've also tried therabreath products before and realize that they only help for minutes if at all.

I actually felt everything was under control until a few days ago, when my breath became much worse... both out of nose and mouth. My tongue is also a little white towards the back despite of cleaning it, which it only used to be when I didn't brush for a few hours.

I've been working at a company for years having had rough days but have been respected despite of having strong bad breath, but recently people have started to "say" that it stinks around me.

This must be due to the following changes in my routine:

- I tried to improve my condition by using steroid spray "Nasonex" once a day regularly for 3-4 weeks after speaking with my ENT.

- I tried Therabreath's K12 probiotics hoping to see a minor improvement.

I DO have intrinsic rhinitis as confirmed with an MRI.
I DO NOT have candida or acid reflux.

Now I'm worried that the worsened condition may be "permanent"...(i.e. until there is a cure).

Has it permanently worsened for anyone before or does it get better again?

In my diet, I eat toast for morning, once a day chicken with rice or a burger and once a day vegetables with bread.

I also have some carrots (for cleaning the back of the tongue) with my meals, some raw spinach (for chlorophyll)
.
I also want to use the nasal irrigation, but I'm worried it may also make the situation worse. Does anyone know if it really makes the nasal breath better?

Other things I've tried that didn't help are:

- Liquid chlorophyll for gargling
- other types of oxidizing mouthwashes
- chlorella
- periobalance GUM tabs
- CB12
- Hydrogen peroxide mixed with water (back 6-7 years ago which made my nasal breath worse)

I'm thinking of taking chorophyll tabs and culturelle tabs to see if that helps, allthough I do not really think my bad breath is coming from my stomach.

Hope someone on this forum can help as I need a quick solution to help me get grip on everything again .

SORRY for this long message....but any help from you is much much appreciated!!!

[joeP]

Hi

dissapointed that I haven't gotten any help from anyone yet?

I'm in my early thirties and married and I'm afraid my situation will impact my job and marriage so much that I will not be able to keep either.

I'm struggling....in the meanwhile for the 5th day in a row...I've started

- oil pulling twice a day,
- nasal irrigation every evening
- started eating lots more spinach and parsley and green tea with ginger and cutting down on any processed foods

I've done this in addition to the twice a day routine of:

- Oral B toothpaste with zinc to brush
- waterpik with diluted chlorhexidine containing mouthwash to floss,
- Fingers and Orabrush Tongue cleaner dipped in chlorhexidine mouthwash for the tongue
- Multivitamins tabs with probiotics (2bln),
- Vitamin C and Zinc tabs,
- Dentyl ph to rinse and gargle
- Smartmouth to rinse and gargle

I'm also planning to start using hydrogen peroxide from today.

And so far only have maybe a few minutes of minor improvement with possibly a foul smell now instead of a fecal.

Still the change doesn't last more than one hour at best.

I've now ordered therabreath plus products again and hoping that should give me a temporary relief at least.

One note....my tounge is whiter than it used to be...it used to be pink before i started the K12 probiotics .

I'm sure you folks have tried different things than me that work for you with similar symptoms....can you please advice what else would be worth considering?

Thanks a lot again !!!

[halitosisux]

Hi, are you able to confide in anyone about your BB?

If you can confide, have you ever tried holding your nostrils and breathing out through your mouth while someone samples your breath?

Also, if you hold your tongue flat against the roof of your mouth and breathe out through your nose, and see how that compares to your mouth odour.

What kind of odours (if any) are you able to detect for yourself on your tongue, your mucus and your saliva etc?

What makes you certain it's your breath and not an odour from some other part of your body?
Have you considered TMAU?
You don't say whether you've ruled out helicobacter pylori, whether you've had your liver/kidney (etc) functions tested, hormonal imbalance, normal thyroid levels, etc etc etc.

Remedies usually make the problem worse unless you at least have some idea of what the underlying cause(s) are for your BB.

[joeP]

Thanks for the reply halitosisux!!

As I mentioned I'm married and we got to know and date while I was having oral bad breath that I was able to control with products. The original source was the mouth ca. 10 years ago...and then the nose a couple of years later. I'm very confident about that.

Hence I doubt that the source is helicobacter pylori or any issues from the liver/kidneys or the organs...still I can schedule appointments to check these.

I don't think anyone I know would do such a breath test with me...it would be quite embarrassing for us and usually fam/friends treat me like there is no smell. Its a different story with everyone else though. well.. its not really needed anyways as I know its coming from mouth and nose.

My tonsils have been removed when I was a kid but I have PND. Also a nasal septum...so I sleep with an open mouth, which leads to a dry mouth in the morning. My morning breath is horrible btw. :-(

I know that the smell is usually fecal as I can smell it sometimes when its really strong and the room is filled (in sec usually) and I'm holding my breath...or low breathing. Today it was a bit chemical/foul, which it is sometimes.

Unfortunately, I'm not able to detect any odors from my saliva.

I've had my liver and stomach checked 4-5 years ago and they were fine. Also no obstruction in the esophagus. It all looked good to the doctors so all the doctors/dentists just said keep up a good oral hygiene, try steam inhalations, better diet etc etc, despite of BB from mouth and nose.

I do burp a bit recently (maybe for a few weeks)...once every 15-20 minutes or so...which tastes sometimes tastes bad.... no hearburn or pain in the chest or excess coming up though.

How would i know about hormonal imbalance or thyroid levels? I've scheduled a general blood test to check all sorts of things...im not sure if it includes these two though.

What sort of remedy would make it worse....I thought the ones I'm using all safe to use?

[FedUp]

Do you still have tonsils/adenoids?
Wisdom teeth?

Have you had a CT scan on your sinuses?

[halitosisux]

Joe, I get the impression from what you say that you speak openly about your BB with your spouse? If you don't, and you haven't been able to confide in anyone, then some or even all of what you believe to be the case with your BB could be wrong.

But let's assume that you do speak openly about it and you do get trusted feedback from someone, then you need to try the things I explained to narrow it down to whether your BB is coming from your mouth, and/or your lungs, and/or your nose.

For the sake of a simple blood test to find out whether you (don't) have helicobacter, you need to rule this out. Helicobacter can have far reaching consequences which could lead to BB that could take years to manifest. Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) is a good example of what I mean there. Also, as you get older, your acid production generally decreases with age. So there may have been a point in time where the effects of acid lowering because of HP combined with general reduction in acid levels from ageing, then started allowing your food to putrify in your stomach.

You should definitely speak to your doctor about ensuring there's nothing wrong with the basic functioning of your organs and your hormone levels are correct. Discuss the possibility of testing for TMAU. If you live in the UK this test is free. You need a doctor's referral though. There are different forms of TMAU and anyone can develop the aquired type at any point in their life, especially if the balance of your gut microflora has been disturbed through the use of antibiotics or illness of some kind.

The remedies you're using are all safe, but if, for instance, a particular remedy leads to nothing but mouth dryness, then that is an example of an unnecessary action which can exacerbate your problem.

By the way, try gently brushing the oral-B toothpaste with zinc, into the tongue surface, followed by gargling with your chlorhexidine mouthwash. This will work together to give you many hours of reduced VOC production. But, if your BB is not type-1, then nothing you do to your tongue is likely to much difference.

[joeP]

Thanks FedUp and halitosisux!

@FedUp: No I don't have tonsils anymore. They were removed when I was a kid. I don't know if I still have adenoids. Yes, I still have wisdom teeth, but they are unlikely the cause.

I've had an MRI to confirm the I do not have sinusitis. I have an intrinsic rhinitis, that is an inflammation being caused from inside my body leading to PND.


@halitosisux: I do not speak openly about the BB with my wife, she gives me a lot of hints indirectly to do something about it as it is intolerable right now.
The BB is worse today than yesterday...also judging by the reaction in the office today. There were coughs in the first 1 minute of me entering a meeting.
I'm assuming it is due to the hydrogen peroxide...which dried out my mouth, even though I had lots of water after.

Even one or two words lead to the other person leaning back and coughing and all people around coughing or showing weird reactions. Apart from the bad breath...I feel completely healthy...no complaints!!

I'm sure I do not have TMAU...as I do not have fishy or body odor. I only shower once a day in the morning and people don't smell/cough on me unless i breath on them. people actually have commented on how nice my perfume and get very close to me where I am...i.e. while I'm not breathing.

My tongue is now constantly white...nothing on the surface...its just dry.

I will have the blood tests done and ask about the organs.

My theory is...it started with bacteria in the mouth, spread to the throat and now may have gone somewhere else where the mouthwashes can't get to...like the nasal passages or the lungs.

[halitosisux]

I'd never heard of intrinsic rhinitis before you mentioned it.

Quite interesting to read about, because I too suffer with PND. It seems that most people on here do too.

In my case, it seems to be affected primarily by house dust, but yet sometimes even when I've been out in the mountains for days, I still have it. I'm always having to "snort" mucus because I can feel it draining at the back of my nose. I hardly ever see anyone else doing that, except for when they have a cold or whatever. I suffer with asthma too, and have a deviated septum. My mother had BB all her life and suffered terribly with PND, and also had a deviated septum and developed nasal polyps. No asthma though. Her BB stopped when she had all her teeth removed, and for years many of them were quite rotten and she's never looked after them much, so it may have been that, but maybe not.

Could this be the common link for many of us? - the thing that makes us susceptible to BB when other people can get away with having no BB ever, even though their mouth contains mostly the same species of bacteria, the same numbers, the same everything, except perhaps for having normal mucus drainage compared to ours?

The thing that makes me really wonder whether PND is THE factor for so many of us, is the experiments I tried myself with my own mucus drainage, mixed with a sample of my oral bacteria, and allowed to incubate for a few hours. The odour will literally throw you back if you smell it. Identical odour to the bad breath which I could detect for myself by breathing into the corner of a room. I can't smell that odour any more, but I know I still have a susceptibility to bad breath that is higher than normal.

I would really like to know the answer to a simple microbiology question:- Does bacterially produced odour depend on the bacteria involved, or does it depend on what specific things they feed on? Maybe it's a bit of both.

Stankie, if you're reading this, please try this experiment. I've mentioned it a few times on here, but no one has ever responded.

[Stankie]

....

[Frantix]

It´s probably a good idea to stop using nasal irrigation every day! i recently read that the daily cleansing causes the opposite of what u want to reach. you destroy/wash out the natural defence of your mucosae, which allows unwanted bacteria and fungi to settle.
nasal irrigation seems to be only useful during acute infections...

[halitosisux]

Joe, sorry to be going off on this tangent now in your thread, it often happens on here, but maybe we'll move it to a new thread shortly.

Stankie, First of all, sorry about your disappointment at the dentist. Have to look at every disappointment as one more step on this journey to ultimate freedom.

Thanks for your good microbiology explanation. Yes, in everyday life, like cheesemaking or wine production, we see that it's the combination of different factors, primarily the microflora involved and the source.

That's why this mucus experiment was so shocking to me at the time, because of the resemblance to the odour it produced and the odour I could detect on my breath. It affected my whole perception for days later. It's hard to explain unless you actually see for yourself. It made me feel sick inside, because I could actually taste this awful smell like it clung to me.

Anyway, here's some details of what I tried:- Find a container, one which you can sterilize by boiling in water, and which has a suitable cover (not completely airtight though).

After a good spell of time without drinking or eating, try to gather some globs of your post nasal drainage from the back of your throat. This mucus will already be contaminated with all your oral microorganisms. gather it into this dish so that you have about 0.5/1.0cm of sample depth (overall volume is not important, as long as there's enough sample so that it won't be affected by evaporation. Now, swish some saliva around your mouth, particularly over your tongue, and then spit it into the sample. Give it a stir. You should find that it has hardly any odour to it at this point. Cover it up and place it into a warm area (airing cupboard is ideal) around 35-40 degrees C. After about 3 hours, prepare yourself for the worst stench you've ever experienced. If it hasn't worked, it's probably because the temperature wasn't right, but keep trying the experiement until it works because with all the right factors in place, it has to produce a stench eventually.

If you don't recognise the odour as your bad breath, it might be a good way to confirm that the odour is not being produced in your mouth or throat, but elsewhere in your body. In my case, it was unmistakeable. This is either a ridiculously stupid experiment in nothing, or it tells us everything really.

[FedUp]

viewtopic.php?t=1358&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[ikageorgian]

Hi, you've said you DO NOT HAVE CANDIDA. I am confident that you do. Spit in to the glass of water and you will see, if saliva will sink in the water during 15 minutes, you do have candida yeast infection in your guts, if it's gonna float you don't.
For further info see my latest post "only cure for halitosis".

Don't worry you will be fine, just a little will power and that's it.

ikageorgian

[halitosisux]

There ya go. You have candida.

[joeP]

@halitosisux
Intrinsic rhinitis is an inflammatory condition of the nasal mucosa which is probably better described by the title non-infective, non-allergic rhinitis. As such it represents, to some extent, a diagnosis of exclusion.

A note...I do not have asthma or halitosis in the immediate or ext. family.

You may want to read page 132 and 133 http://www.scribd.com/doc/69003159/Key-Topics

I just went to my GP who prescribed me Omeprazole after hearing my story. He also told me to take it for 28 days after I leave a stool sample tomorrow to test for helicobacter pylori and gastritis and any other bacterial infections. If there is anything like that he says he will give me antibiotics.

The blood test results are due next week, so I should know more about the kidney/liver functions and other levels soon.

I have clearly fecal breath, extremely strong and no TMAU as it does not smell fishy and there is no body odor.

@Frantix: I stopped using nasal irrigation for two days. No change, maybe worse. My ENT suggested prev that I do it regularly...its called NielMed. Thus I'm thinking of continuing it.
However, I've stopped using the steriod spray nasonex that I was supposed to take for 2 months....I haven't taken it for a 5-6 days now. Not sure if that was a good decision or not.

@FedUp: Wisdom teeth are very unlikely as I use waterpik and even after using chlorhexidine and zinc mouthwash, zinc toothpaste, chlorine dioxid and zinc mouthwash, lots of dentyl ph etc etc there is no or minimal improvement.

@ikageorgian: I told my GP about candida as a possibility and he dismissed it saying that I do not have any signs of Candida. He asked me to show him my tongue and he said its normal. I looked at it just now and it was white...but no excess on it.

Need help folks...no way I can go back to the office this way.