Bad Breath Halitosis Forum

Hello. I am passively using this Forum since about 2 years now, since I wanted to take care about my bb.

Anyhow this is my very first post, but dont judge by this. I just want to share my findings so far (as I think the help for everyone lies in sharings from everyone).

Some short story about me, I am some guy, having bb since I can remember. Now, a few years later, I am still searching for the cause - yet, i've found a few solutions which might be interesting for you. (Maybe it could help you, or even me by getting more tips from you). My oral hygiene was always good and I had never problems with gums or teeth.

So basicly, those are my exact symptoms and what I have done to cure them + some findings:

Tonsil stones. From time to time I had cought up some tonsil stones. So I visited a few docs as I was sure my bb was caused by this. Finally I got my tonsils removed.
This didnt helped for my bb, but I am happy that I dont need to care about the stones ever again.

PND - all day long. As far as I can remember from childhood, I always had something in my throat. I have visited maany ent's and finally they thought the problem is my deviated septum, and some polyps. So I got the septum corrected and the polyps removed, but the bb stayed - and the pnd too.

One interesting thing though which I discovered when I had an infection: I was given Amoxicillin (kills aerobic bacteria - as opposed to Metronidazole "Flagyl" which kills anaerobic ones) which lead to 100% improvement of my bb. Therefore i was cured for the time I took that antibiotic but as I stopped the bb came back nearly instantly. (Ive read a lot about this on the forum here, as there were more cases like this one).

*I personally think Metronidazole would have the same effect: A full cure, but only for the duration of the intake.

I am pretty good with medicine, altough I havent any degree or something, just by self teaching. So what I found mentioned very often was the H Pylori bacteria. And as I knew, it was treated exactly with amoxicillin.

So I took another shot and got an gastroscopy. This showed HP negative, but still it showed that I have an opened cardia (weekened/loosened/pressureless LES - lower esophageal sphincter) which means the acids of my stomach can go up the esophagus.

Tbh, i dont really believe that my HP is negative as I found only very little evidence that Gastritis (as I was diagnosed with) could be present without that bacteria or other causes, which i certainly dont have. Read more in this analysis: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/779649_1.

So far, my theory bases on the fact that somehow the acids (gas?) from the stomach go up and cause the thick pnd. This (as known from this forum) causes bb on its own + the acids coming up as an additional cause (the cardia is loosen).

So my advice would be to get an gastroscopy, as for my understanding the most bb is caused by this.

What I am still unclear on is the smell of my breath. On mornings it smells like sh*t, even after brushing, like rotten eggs. Then it kinda gets a leather smell, which is very fleeing as I cant smell it all the time as the rotten / feces smell when it is present. Also, I dont have very bad breath throughout the day, but when I dont eat it gets worse. Alcohol makes it worse too, but somehow on the next morning the breath is a bit better. (anyone knows why? as in this forum it is mostly the opposite case). The same goes for weed that the next day the breath is a bit better. (Smoke is killing bacteria I guess).
Also what is interesting for me is that when I do sports for example the breath goes away for some time.

So what I am left with? As I said before I have an opened cardia (allowing stomach acids to get up - I think this is the cause for the fecal smell) + some GERD (but as believed by the doctors not caused by HP).

Anyone can add something / did I helped someone with that?
What I would like to know is what the cause of the Gastritis is - if not HP - and why my breath sometimes smells like leather. (mostly in the morning after brushing - but only in special places like some rooms).

What I will research on further is if the HP result can be taken honestly, as I personally believe (as also heligirl said) that HP is nearly everyones cause. My theory is that nearly everyone has this bacteria in him but the biopsy or other HP tests doesnt show it always.

Edit1: HPylori is treated with Amoxicillin, Metronidazole (flagyl), PPI, Clarithromycin (biaxin) therefore I can guess that if someone is relieved with one of those meds, the cause could be searched in the gastro-area.

Hello Bbad,

Let's say you are right about the disfunction of the LES. Have you come across any solution to this problem other than surgery which has serious side effects?

My case is consistent with type 2 & 3. My worst nightmare is finding out that LES and PND are both responsible for my bb and as we all know both of these conditions are extremely hard to cure completely. Anyway, if you happen to find any method to fix a disfunctional LES in your research, please let me know.

compor wrote:Hello Bbad,

Let's say you are right about the disfunction of the LES. Have you come across any solution to this problem other than surgery which has serious side effects?

And what are the side effects of surgery ?

Ye, same for me. LES + PND. Why dont you just go for the LES surgery?

I guess I have mostly type 3 bb, why do you exactly think you have type 2?

What I found in my research, that LES is often caused by too low stomach acid. Actually (as experienced on my own) doctors prescribe you PPI's in order to keep this acid as low as possible. This generates some short-term results, but also allows bacteria to settle there.

You are right that this is hard to cure completely, but I think LES is just a symptom of a bigger problem. (Same actually is true for PND). Therefore I think, it is important to search for the causes of LES and not for methods to fix the disfunctional LES.

Have you read Chriss Kresser's Blog (actually there are about 5 parts) on this subject? I found it very informative for me .. http://chriskresser.com/what-everybody- ... tburn-gerd

Also, take a look at this: "Also, H pylori infection leads to increased production of prostaglandins41 which, in addition to inflammatory mediators, can sensitise afferent nerves and reduce LOS pressure." Source: http://gut.bmj.com/content/41/3/277.full

Let me know your thoughts on that

EDIT: I just found an interesting lead, Hypochlorhydria - which is too low stomach acid. http://empoweredsustenance.com/heal-low ... naturally/

Actually, in this article there are symptoms which are similar to mine (les pressure, bloating, gas, reflux -> bb), therefore i guess this might be a very interesting thing.

Also this joins with my theory of HPylori. Actually HP is lowering stomach acid, meaning exactly this could be the problem.

Thought I had tried out everything, but those are my 2 new hopes to get checked for.

Hello again Bbad,

Thanks for the links you provided, I read them all. Although the doctor is trying to sell his stuff, I believe he is telling the truth about PPIs. It explains a lot. I started having bad breath about 10 years ago (~30 years old). Those times I used to eat lots of junk food. In theory, my case could be like this:

bad eating habits >> H. pylori infection >> low stomach acid >> gastritis >> malabsorption >> GERD >> bb >> doc prescribes PPI >> lower stomach acid >> more malabsorption

All those doctors I have seen, not a single one even remotely mentioned about low stomach acid. They just asked for endoscopy right away, then prescribed PPI and sent me home.

TL:DR Chris Kresser suggests that stomach acid is essential and PPIs should not be used. GERD and other stomach related problems could be solved by:
- Low carb diet
- HCL + pepsin supplements
- Probiotics (kefir + yogurt recommended)

I tried them all separately, but never together. I am going to try it. What could go wrong?

why do you exactly think you have type 2?

I have a deviated septum, my right nostril is about 60% blocked, and I have concha bullosa.

Your theory of the causes seems very logical to me, I see it nearly the same for me.

For the PPI's, its really just a cash booster for the farmacy industry. As the article probably states: Gastritis can be the cause of either to low stomach acid or to high. Anyhow, mostly its to low stomach acid, therefore we should take HCL as you stated and not PPI's as prescribed by doctors. (Which by the way also suppress the bb for a short time, but its just temporarily).

Regarding your Deviated Septum: As I stated in the first post, I dont see as a cause. Thats because I thought a long time (before I identified my stomach as problemsource) that my bb is caused by the deviated septum. Therefore I got an surgery, also reducing the turbinates, removing the polyps and correcting the septum. Right now, my nose looks "perfect" as the doctor said, and still there is the same bb.
I always had an 80% blocked nostril (only one at a time), but even now this doesnt make any difference for my breath.

Did you try anything about your HPylori infection, as it might be definitely the cause?

About H. pylori:
The first doctor (4 years ago) tested me for H.pylori infection and it was positive. I had triple medicine therapy and since then I had 4 endoscopy. They had biopsy in each operation and tested for H.pylori. All came back negative. I used PPIs on and off, for a total of 1 year. As a result, even though H.pylori was gone 4 years ago damage was already done and apparently PPI's did nothing to cure. For all I know, they might have done everything worse cause all my complaints are still there. No improvements whatsoever.

About deviated septum:
I have 2 reasons to suspect from nasal issues. 1. Dr. Murat Aydin did some tests and found out that I have nasal odor as well. Then examined my ct scan and thought my deviated septum and concha bullosa could be the reason for nasal odor. 2. I read a post from a guy who got cured after septoplasty. He posted it in 2010. I contacted him last year. He got married and still free of bb. I am hoping that septoplasty could fix my nasal odor problem.

I dont think it's both. So either it will be the septum or the stomach for you.

For my problem I had some interesting things happening. I visited the doctor and told him the acid boosting pills were working for me. He said he couldn't believe it and prescribed me PPI's so now I have a big problem.

Have been taking the PPI's for a few days right now, and it actually doesn't help at all.

Do you guys have any more traces to look for regarding my symptoms?

Would appreciate any little help. Thanks