Bad Breath Halitosis Forum

Posted: **Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:30 pm**

found interesting article for those that want to read
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 3888A1.pdf

an update on my journey trying to keep it short.. couldn't tolerate betaine hcl because of something sulfury in it. don't really tolerate anything with lots of sulfur because of the sulfur producing overgrowth. molybdenum helped to control symptoms and detoxification when I ate something sulfury but didnt treat the overgrowth.
pepzin gi supplement somehow restored my appetite, before I was never hungry now I feel hungry and eat normal meals, which I couldn't before. a good try for those that don't have appetite (maybe it restores stomach acid?). eating a little protein at every meal, because I think it is crucial fo stomach acid production and salt. hope I didnt forget something.
on the first flight at the beginning it was okay, at one point a small outburst of rotten egg smell. on the flight back I didnt have any outburst, which Is an improvement because I always had it at every flight. the one think I changed between flight 1 and flight 2 was I walked like 20 000 steps a day, this was the only change. I noticed my digestion was better and motility improved, before I went one time a day on toilet, and the days I walked a lot I went two times a day. but the amount of food I ate was the same, so somehow the 20 000 steps improved my motility.
motility is a huge cause of sibo apparently.

pretty sure at the moment that for the people with the rotten egg smell it is an overgrowth of sulfide producing bacteria in the small intestine, so if you have it.. I would concentrate on improving digestion and not look in a different direction. but how to really treat those bacteria I don't really know.

"In the body, H2S must be detoxified by oxidation. While H2S can be produced in large quantities by sulfate reducing bacteria in the colon, it is normally rapidly metabolized by a specialized detoxification system in the colonic mucosa. More proximal sites of the gastrointestinal tract including the small intestine are much less efficient at detoxifying this gas. If the detoxification system were to be overwhelmed,H2S would escape the gut to enter the portal vein"
"An H2S or lactulose breath test and/or detection of H2S or thiosulfate in the blood or urine maybe used as a diagnostic and/or prognostic for assessing a systemic H2S load that exceeds a mammal’s natural detoxification capacity."
so maybe it isn't that much of a genetic problem but more that of an overgrowth that exceeds normal detoxification capacity..

I wish we had a gut microbiome specialist here that would help us in how to treat an overgrowth of this kind of bacteria.. but I don't think that there is ONE pill that would get rid of it for sure.

what are your thoughts?

Posted: **Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:21 pm**

nolab wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:30 pm found interesting article for those that want to read
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 3888A1.pdf

an update on my journey trying to keep it short.. couldn't tolerate betaine hcl because of something sulfury in it. don't really tolerate anything with lots of sulfur because of the sulfur producing overgrowth. molybdenum helped to control symptoms and detoxification when I ate something sulfury but didnt treat the overgrowth.
pepzin gi supplement somehow restored my appetite, before I was never hungry now I feel hungry and eat normal meals, which I couldn't before. a good try for those that don't have appetite (maybe it restores stomach acid?). eating a little protein at every meal, because I think it is crucial fo stomach acid production and salt. hope I didnt forget something.
on the first flight at the beginning it was okay, at one point a small outburst of rotten egg smell. on the flight back I didnt have any outburst, which Is an improvement because I always had it at every flight. the one think I changed between flight 1 and flight 2 was I walked like 20 000 steps a day, this was the only change. I noticed my digestion was better and motility improved, before I went one time a day on toilet, and the days I walked a lot I went two times a day. but the amount of food I ate was the same, so somehow the 20 000 steps improved my motility.
motility is a huge cause of sibo apparently.

pretty sure at the moment that for the people with the rotten egg smell it is an overgrowth of sulfide producing bacteria in the small intestine, so if you have it.. I would concentrate on improving digestion and not look in a different direction. but how to really treat those bacteria I don't really know.

"In the body, H2S must be detoxified by oxidation. While H2S can be produced in large quantities by sulfate reducing bacteria in the colon, it is normally rapidly metabolized by a specialized detoxification system in the colonic mucosa. More proximal sites of the gastrointestinal tract including the small intestine are much less efficient at detoxifying this gas. If the detoxification system were to be overwhelmed,H2S would escape the gut to enter the portal vein"
"An H2S or lactulose breath test and/or detection of H2S or thiosulfate in the blood or urine maybe used as a diagnostic and/or prognostic for assessing a systemic H2S load that exceeds a mammal’s natural detoxification capacity."
so maybe it isn't that much of a genetic problem but more that of an overgrowth that exceeds normal detoxification capacity..

I wish we had a gut microbiome specialist here that would help us in how to treat an overgrowth of this kind of bacteria.. but I don't think that there is ONE pill that would get rid of it for sure.

what are your thoughts?

Glad to hear from you as I closely follow your posts.

OK, so here is my logic (obviously it's NOT based on scientific knowledge and research etc).

If an odor sample is taken from the stomach of a healthy person and compared with the sample taken from a person with chronic halitosis then in my opinion, there wouldn't be much of a difference in potency. Both guts would smell the same.

If you open the gut, it would smell equally bad for all mammals of the same specie.

So this "Over growth of bacteria" in the gut does not make sense to me (and I could be 100% wrong), otherwise, one gut would stink A LOT more than the other.

But playing the devils advocate, lets say odor causing bacteria DOES over grow in some people, then the cause most likely IS a genetic disorder. (related to the last paragraph below).

There may be different kinds of chronic halitosis with different causes and different potency level. We may not have it classified it yet but in my opinion, it is most likely the genetic kind that most of us have.

Our bodies simply produce less of detoxifying chemicals as compared to the amount of odorous gasses that are produced. The error is not in quantity but it's the ratio in percentages.

Lets say, our bodies produce an odorous gas of 85% after eating a certain food. (Both guts of a normal person and a chronic halitosis patient, would smell equally bad at this point).

Now the system requires to produce 80% of detoxifying chemicals (5% contributed towards good hygiene practice) to counter it - but - in our case, we may produce 25% of such agents. So 50% odorous gasses are left untreated.

The problem is perhaps in the equation. Our systems have got this equation wrong.
It is genetically programmed to produce 25% to counter 80%, for example. And this, unfortunately, doesn't work.

As I stated earlier. My first cousins, who I grew up with; we were in the same social setup, same school, same neighborhood, ate the same foods, played together, grew up in the same environment etc.
They may scream, talk loud, talk normal or just whisper; and you can put your nose in their mouths and you won't smell an iota of odor. They just brush once in the morning. No mouth wash, no tongue scrapping, no flossing, no supplements, no food consciousness, no nothing!

Posted: **Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:02 pm**

yeah I get what you mean, your right in some points..
"But playing the devils advocate, lets say odor causing bacteria DOES over grow in some people, then the cause most likely IS a genetic disorder. (related to the last paragraph below)." yes it could be a cause in case of hydrogen sulfide sibo, but I think there could be also other causes as to why bacteria overgrow, like low stomach acid for example, slow motility or infection.

"If an odor sample is taken from the stomach of a healthy person and compared with the sample taken from a person with chronic halitosis then in my opinion, there wouldn't be much of a difference in potency. Both guts would smell the same." apparently if there are erosive, inflamed changes in the stomach, there are more gases produced than in healthy people. more hydrogen sulfide.

I mean it could be both. an only genetic problem or an only heavy overgrowth problem. or it surely can be both, which would be the worse.
but I mean if we would have a genetic mutation, decreasing the dysbiosis in small intestine would help.

for sure I cant do nothing about genetic mutations, but if there is just a little possibility that there might be an overgrowth of bacteria, then I will try to find something that helps. I had digestive issues and I have done an organic acid urine test, which showed some anormalities, so I think in my case dysbiosis plays a role.
if I also have genetic mutations-even worse. but if I treat the dysbiosis maybe my lowered detoxification capacity could handle it better.
thanks for your thoughts KL123

Posted: **Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:10 pm**

ah so i talked with my mother last week because I mentioned that I get a heavy headache when I eat too many eggs and she mentioned that when she was young she also had headaches and didnt felt well after eggs. BUT she never smelled/smells bad! this could mean that there may be a genetic mutation in the sulfur pathway/ metabolism/ detox don't know how it is called. but yea she never smelled. so this made me think that it could be both in my case..
the genetic cause and dysbiosis.

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:41 am**

nolab wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:10 pm ah so i talked with my mother last week because I mentioned that I get a heavy headache when I eat too many eggs and she mentioned that when she was young she also had headaches and didnt felt well after eggs. BUT she never smelled/smells bad! this could mean that there may be a genetic mutation in the sulfur pathway/ metabolism/ detox don't know how it is called. but yea she never smelled. so this made me think that it could be both in my case..
the genetic cause and dysbiosis.

Yeah it's a mystery.

I did meet a doctor once, and she is a VERY, VERY good doctor practicing in New York.
We had a discussion about it and what she said (it was about 10 years ago), that in some people, the odorous bacteria just grows a lot more than normal people. And this causes chronic halitosis. Obviously, she didn't have any cure for it.

So, in a way, her statement supported what you may thinking.
It could be that, it's not our system's inability to produce lower amount of detoxification but the overgrowth of bacteria production is simply overwhelming for the forces to counter it.

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:03 pm**

ugh yes it really is a mystery

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:31 pm**

nolab wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:03 pm ugh yes it really is a mystery

What about this? Any thoughts?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2 ... 6ILhKaJxsQ

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:23 pm**

KL123 wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:31 pm
nolab wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:03 pm ugh yes it really is a mystery
What about this? Any thoughts?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2 ... 6ILhKaJxsQ

would be interesting, but I cant get my hands on this one here.. so no option for me.
started new school and first day was awful. I would like to just give up but somehow I cant, I just want to life a normal life, nothing more.
right now I am trying a gluten free diet and started today on Korean red ginseng. just to see if it improves. will update.
pretty sure in my case it somehow is from the stomach. oral bb is gone completely and the fecal smell too, but this sulfur one I somehow cant get rid of. its like oral bb but 100% from the nose/stomach.

if someone is interested why Korean ginseng..it is a gastroprotectant and apparently inhibits CBS/CSE activity (CBS/CSE enzymes produce hydrogen sulphide from what I understand).
a lot of sites say that it most the time not from the stomach, but somehow I am really sure it is in my case. I had the oral bb which is gone and also had a constant fecal like smell which is also gone, but this type is like pure hydrogen sulphidesometimes. and somehow has a pattern, it isn't all the time.

read on many sites and asked dr Murat Aydin on this site about it, and everywhere they say that if there is injury or erosions in stomach/esophagus there also is production of hydrogen sulfide. so I don't know.. many studies show that helicobacter pylori induced injuries in stomach also causes halitosis, and is gone when they treat it.
i tested for h pylori negative, so I am thinking maybe it is another bacteria overgrowing that hurts my stomach or maybe I don't know gluten indirectly curbs up inflammatory reactions which affects my stomach.(got one gene mutation linked to gluten sensitivity)

so this one I don't know if I am believing like I said but I told already that I checked gene mutations and I also have a mutation on CBS enzyme activity, it could be upregulated. Upregulated CBS activity=more hydrogen sulphide production.
korean red ginseng decreases the activity of CBS so that's why I am trying this. those are my two last ideas at the moment. for those interested I can link some studies..

"The mean expressions of CBS or CSE were significantly increasingly noted in patients with erosive changes. All of these results consistently suggested “halitosis” as possible biomarker predicting the presence of mucosal destruction and resulting putrefactive process in stomach."
as you can see in figure 1 in non-ersovive gastritis there are no VOCs produced but one erosive gastritis there are a lot produced.
https://www.intechopen.com/books/extrad ... mitigate-i

"Among 20 H. pylori-negative patients, 13 patients became 'free of halitosis' with 10 weeks of red ginseng treatment alone"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776584

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20981207 and so on..

wish me luck, those are my last ideas atm.

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:58 pm**

nolab wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:23 pm
KL123 wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:31 pm
nolab wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:03 pm ugh yes it really is a mystery
What about this? Any thoughts?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2 ... 6ILhKaJxsQ
would be interesting, but I cant get my hands on this one here.. so no option for me.
started new school and first day was awful. I would like to just give up but somehow I cant, I just want to life a normal life, nothing more.
right now I am trying a gluten free diet and started today on Korean red ginseng. just to see if it improves. will update.
pretty sure in my case it somehow is from the stomach. oral bb is gone completely and the fecal smell too, but this sulfur one I somehow cant get rid of. its like oral bb but 100% from the nose/stomach.

if someone is interested why Korean ginseng..it is a gastroprotectant and apparently inhibits CBS/CSE activity (CBS/CSE enzymes produce hydrogen sulphide from what I understand).
a lot of sites say that it most the time not from the stomach, but somehow I am really sure it is in my case. I had the oral bb which is gone and also had a constant fecal like smell which is also gone, but this type is like pure hydrogen sulphidesometimes. and somehow has a pattern, it isn't all the time.

read on many sites and asked dr Murat Aydin on this site about it, and everywhere they say that if there is injury or erosions in stomach/esophagus there also is production of hydrogen sulfide. so I don't know.. many studies show that helicobacter pylori induced injuries in stomach also causes halitosis, and is gone when they treat it.
i tested for h pylori negative, so I am thinking maybe it is another bacteria overgrowing that hurts my stomach or maybe I don't know gluten indirectly curbs up inflammatory reactions which affects my stomach.(got one gene mutation linked to gluten sensitivity)

so this one I don't know if I am believing like I said but I told already that I checked gene mutations and I also have a mutation on CBS enzyme activity, it could be upregulated. Upregulated CBS activity=more hydrogen sulphide production.
korean red ginseng decreases the activity of CBS so that's why I am trying this. those are my two last ideas at the moment. for those interested I can link some studies..

"The mean expressions of CBS or CSE were significantly increasingly noted in patients with erosive changes. All of these results consistently suggested “halitosis” as possible biomarker predicting the presence of mucosal destruction and resulting putrefactive process in stomach."
as you can see in figure 1 in non-ersovive gastritis there are no VOCs produced but one erosive gastritis there are a lot produced.
https://www.intechopen.com/books/extrad ... mitigate-i

"Among 20 H. pylori-negative patients, 13 patients became 'free of halitosis' with 10 weeks of red ginseng treatment alone"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776584

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20981207 and so on..

wish me luck, those are my last ideas atm.

So the combo of Korean red ginseng and gluten free diet removed oral bb?

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:19 pm**

no maybe I didnt make it clear.. oral bb was also gone before starting gluten free and Korean red ginseng.
just on some days when stomach hurt my breath was a little worse and warm feeling in mouth. but just single days, most of the time it was good.

I am on day 3 of gluten free and I noticed a change in my breath and how my mouth feels. more natural and neutral.even after eating.
about korean ginseng I cant say much because I started today.

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:09 pm**

nolab wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:19 pm no maybe I didnt make it clear.. oral bb was also gone before starting gluten free and Korean red ginseng.
just on some days when stomach hurt my breath was a little worse and warm feeling in mouth. but just single days, most of the time it was good.

I am on day 3 of gluten free and I noticed a change in my breath and how my mouth feels. more natural and neutral.even after eating.
about korean ginseng I cant say much because I started today.

OK, and what helped removing the oral bb before you started ginseng and gluten free?

I searched for Korean Ginseng on Amazon, and it also came up with Horny Goat weed. May be we should try that too ?

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:40 am**

KL123 wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:09 pm
nolab wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:19 pm no maybe I didnt make it clear.. oral bb was also gone before starting gluten free and Korean red ginseng.
just on some days when stomach hurt my breath was a little worse and warm feeling in mouth. but just single days, most of the time it was good.

I am on day 3 of gluten free and I noticed a change in my breath and how my mouth feels. more natural and neutral.even after eating.
about korean ginseng I cant say much because I started today.
OK, and what helped removing the oral bb before you started ginseng and gluten free?

I searched for Korean Ginseng on Amazon, and it also came up with Horny Goat weed. May be we should try that too ?

mostly the neem&pomegranate toothpaste kept it in check.
about the horny goat weed I don't know if its a joke lol. since it hasn't gastroprotectant or inhibiting function on cbs/cse it wouldn't change anything.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:10 pm**

nolab wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:40 am
KL123 wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:09 pm
nolab wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:19 pm no maybe I didnt make it clear.. oral bb was also gone before starting gluten free and Korean red ginseng.
just on some days when stomach hurt my breath was a little worse and warm feeling in mouth. but just single days, most of the time it was good.

I am on day 3 of gluten free and I noticed a change in my breath and how my mouth feels. more natural and neutral.even after eating.
about korean ginseng I cant say much because I started today.
OK, and what helped removing the oral bb before you started ginseng and gluten free?

I searched for Korean Ginseng on Amazon, and it also came up with Horny Goat weed. May be we should try that too ?
mostly the neem&pomegranate toothpaste kept it in check.
about the horny goat weed I don't know if its a joke lol. since it hasn't gastroprotectant or inhibiting function on cbs/cse it wouldn't change anything.

Yeah the horny goat weed was a joke but wouldn't hurt to try. Just like Viagra was found accidentally to promote erection as a side effect, who knows horny goat weed cures bad breath as a side effect? Miracles do happen dude. Lets not leave any stone unturned. lol

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:14 pm**

Anyway, there is some good results reported on taking 50 mg Vit B2 4 times a day and a glass of Kefir twice a day. It seems to reduce the body odor and bad breath odor. I am gonna give it a shot.

Posted: **Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:59 am**

KL123 wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:41 am
nolab wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:10 pm ah so i talked with my mother last week because I mentioned that I get a heavy headache when I eat too many eggs and she mentioned that when she was young she also had headaches and didnt felt well after eggs. BUT she never smelled/smells bad! this could mean that there may be a genetic mutation in the sulfur pathway/ metabolism/ detox don't know how it is called. but yea she never smelled. so this made me think that it could be both in my case..
the genetic cause and dysbiosis.
Yeah it's a mystery.

I did meet a doctor once, and she is a VERY, VERY good doctor practicing in New York.
We had a discussion about it and what she said (it was about 10 years ago), that in some people, the odorous bacteria just grows a lot more than normal people. And this causes chronic halitosis. Obviously, she didn't have any cure for it.

So, in a way, her statement supported what you may thinking.
It could be that, it's not our system's inability to produce lower amount of detoxification but the overgrowth of bacteria production is simply overwhelming for the forces to counter it.

What is the doctors name? What type of Dr? I live in NY.

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