halitosisux wrote:Hi,
This is so confusing. Im reading that the more acid present, the less bacteria or bacterial activity generally, and the odours from any reflux come only from the acidic juices themselves which cause very minor odours.
If reflux is directly causing BB does anyone know how it might do that apart from indirectly through protective reactions of the mucous membranes? Because even food which sits in the stomach for a couple of hours mixed with all that acid doesnt smell bad. Just burping proves this, and so does vomit. Or does anyone have bad smelling burps/vomit which smell nothing like the food they've eaten?
From what i've researched, the only time the stomach produces foul (truly foul) odours is when sacks (diverticula) form in the esophagus in which food becomes trapped and stagnates or similarly from a hiatal hernia.
Halitosisux,
u sound so logically. the big question is the connection ar-bb.Wnaysha, ur right wondering why no doctor can help us. bb is an interdisciplinary problem which should be solved by several specialists working together, alas I can`t see that happening. another question is why dotors don`t have bb, I`ve always wondered...
Low levels of acid on the other hand can have far reaching implications which can indirectly lead to BB, including bacterial overgrowth (more bacteria present than normal, not "bad" bacteria or candida or whatever) in the small intestine, leading to putrification of food at a stage of digestion which isnt normally putrified and which might produce odourous chemicals that get absorbed into the bloodstream.
I know people who complain about acid and heartburn all the time, but they dont have BB.
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halitosisux
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Hi iva,
I think the reason why no one knows the AR/BB connection is.. because maybe there isnt one?...
...UNLESS you have have AR or silent reflux, which can trigger the release of large amounts of mucus and PND and thickening of the mucous membranes inside the nose and throat to protect these delicate layers from damage. This in turn could itself lead to BB, but its also a very real possibility that such a situation could give rise to enough nasal congestion to potentially cause sinus blockage and associated bacterial problems within the nose or sinuses for some unfortunate people.
Having gone from being a chronic BB sufferer for over 20 years to NOTHING, i've seen how BB absolutely CAN be due to the most basic reasons.
The mouth of any human WILL give rise to bad breath if it is dehydrated. We all have this natural anaerobic bacterial breeding ground on the tongue surface full of anaerobic bacteria (mostly of the same types).
Our saliva which contains high levels of oxygen ensures that overall bacterial activity and subsequent odour levels remain low enough and imperceivable to others.
The tongue surface is highly absorbant, odours from the foods we eat will linger there to assist in taste perceptions of food. But anyone who has a dental or nasal source of foul discharge will also contaminate this absorbant surface with these odourous chemicals that will constantly bathe it.
Dr. katz and co. wants us all to believe we merely have more bacterial activity on our tongues which we can do nothing about other than buy their shit products which will do nothing for people with chronic BB because it isnt addressing the true reasons for the odour. Infact, the physical damage caused by tongue brushing/scraping creates a vicious circle as the tongue tries to protect itself by increasing the growth of tongue papillae, creating even more "furring" and anerobic area. That's why these products work for a while and then stop working, but that's enough to get people "hooked".
The reason why BB is so difficult to eradicate is not because the causes are unknown, its because the KNOWN causes are so difficult to get diagnosed and treated. If you can absolutely rule out any dental causes and other areas of chronic infection which a doctor can easily recognise and diagnose, then it has to be something happening in the nose/sinuses. Why else are so many people on here agonizing over their nasal odours?
Many digestive issues can cause either dehydration, leading to BB, or they can increase mucus thickness/quantity and affect the sinuses/nasal system in the same ways described above.
Any other causes of BB (in which foul odours are mostly exhaled through the lungs, but may also affect other bodily secretions) are easily identifiable by doctors because of other serious symptoms normally associated with them.
This is my opinion anyway, based on my experiences and what i've concluded. I may well have made incorrect assumptions, so anyone plz feel free to discuss and debate anything i've said.
I think the reason why no one knows the AR/BB connection is.. because maybe there isnt one?...
...UNLESS you have have AR or silent reflux, which can trigger the release of large amounts of mucus and PND and thickening of the mucous membranes inside the nose and throat to protect these delicate layers from damage. This in turn could itself lead to BB, but its also a very real possibility that such a situation could give rise to enough nasal congestion to potentially cause sinus blockage and associated bacterial problems within the nose or sinuses for some unfortunate people.
Having gone from being a chronic BB sufferer for over 20 years to NOTHING, i've seen how BB absolutely CAN be due to the most basic reasons.
The mouth of any human WILL give rise to bad breath if it is dehydrated. We all have this natural anaerobic bacterial breeding ground on the tongue surface full of anaerobic bacteria (mostly of the same types).
Our saliva which contains high levels of oxygen ensures that overall bacterial activity and subsequent odour levels remain low enough and imperceivable to others.
The tongue surface is highly absorbant, odours from the foods we eat will linger there to assist in taste perceptions of food. But anyone who has a dental or nasal source of foul discharge will also contaminate this absorbant surface with these odourous chemicals that will constantly bathe it.
Dr. katz and co. wants us all to believe we merely have more bacterial activity on our tongues which we can do nothing about other than buy their shit products which will do nothing for people with chronic BB because it isnt addressing the true reasons for the odour. Infact, the physical damage caused by tongue brushing/scraping creates a vicious circle as the tongue tries to protect itself by increasing the growth of tongue papillae, creating even more "furring" and anerobic area. That's why these products work for a while and then stop working, but that's enough to get people "hooked".
The reason why BB is so difficult to eradicate is not because the causes are unknown, its because the KNOWN causes are so difficult to get diagnosed and treated. If you can absolutely rule out any dental causes and other areas of chronic infection which a doctor can easily recognise and diagnose, then it has to be something happening in the nose/sinuses. Why else are so many people on here agonizing over their nasal odours?
Many digestive issues can cause either dehydration, leading to BB, or they can increase mucus thickness/quantity and affect the sinuses/nasal system in the same ways described above.
Any other causes of BB (in which foul odours are mostly exhaled through the lungs, but may also affect other bodily secretions) are easily identifiable by doctors because of other serious symptoms normally associated with them.
This is my opinion anyway, based on my experiences and what i've concluded. I may well have made incorrect assumptions, so anyone plz feel free to discuss and debate anything i've said.
A lot of good info there Halitosisux.
'Infact, the physical damage caused by tongue brushing/scraping creates a vicious circle as the tongue tries to protect itself by increasing the growth of tongue papillae, creating even more "furring" and anerobic area. '
I have recently stopped tongue brushing for a few days, and my tongue coating is much different. It is now hard to see, but still there just. I think it has reverted to a normal oral flora. However tongue brushing used to help me quite a lot.
My tongue coating is now basicly the same colour as my tongue, and it doesnt get dyed by drinking coloured drinks. May not sound like a big change, but it is upon visual comparison.
Im not sure what caused it, the only things I have done differently recently are cutting down on Vit C suplllements to stop reflux, taking zinc tablets but not the multimineral(calcium and some others inactivate zinc) and not tongue brushing. The zinc probably wont be it because I havnt taken it long enough. Strange experiance, I feel as if my body has finally won the battle?
'Infact, the physical damage caused by tongue brushing/scraping creates a vicious circle as the tongue tries to protect itself by increasing the growth of tongue papillae, creating even more "furring" and anerobic area. '
I have recently stopped tongue brushing for a few days, and my tongue coating is much different. It is now hard to see, but still there just. I think it has reverted to a normal oral flora. However tongue brushing used to help me quite a lot.
My tongue coating is now basicly the same colour as my tongue, and it doesnt get dyed by drinking coloured drinks. May not sound like a big change, but it is upon visual comparison.
Im not sure what caused it, the only things I have done differently recently are cutting down on Vit C suplllements to stop reflux, taking zinc tablets but not the multimineral(calcium and some others inactivate zinc) and not tongue brushing. The zinc probably wont be it because I havnt taken it long enough. Strange experiance, I feel as if my body has finally won the battle?
Halitosisux,halitosisux wrote:I think the reason why no one knows the AR/BB connection is.. because maybe there isnt one?...
...UNLESS you have have AR or silent reflux, which can trigger the release of large amounts of mucus and PND and thickening of the mucous membranes inside the nose and throat to protect these delicate layers from damage. This in turn could itself lead to BB
thank u for the detailed post; it`s amazing how a person, totally bb cured, is still hanging around, trying to help in any possible way..
There IS an AR-BB connection, though it may not be very welll studied and maybe doctors are not interested in finding the solution, since bb is not a life - threatening condition. Is the silent AR when u have no chest pain, yet u can feel smth coming up the throat and constantly cleaning one`s throat?
Dehydration is a very serious factor contributing to bb. I suppose all the rinses and washes I use, lead to dehydration, because I did an experiment - brushed and rinsed ONLY with water for the last 4 days and my mouth felt much cleaner and hydrated that usually (not sure about bb). This a reaction which has been witnessed several times no this forum
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halitosisux
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Hi asd & iva,
I cant imagine anyone who has truly suffered with BB for so long and been fortunate enough to have found the cause of their BB to just disappear and forget the people who are going through the same desperation. It's purely because others have shared their experiences that i've been so fortunate.
I think most people upon realising that odours appear to come from the tongue begin brushing and scraping and fighting it with harsh chemicals and become trapped by this mostly futile routine and fear that if they dont they'll smell far worse.
The simple fact that EVERY mouth will produce BB if it is dehydrated or too alkaline proves a very important point. ALL humans have the right conditions to give rise to BB in those situations, such as during sleep for example.
So, if we are not dehydrated and we have normal chemistry, then something else must therefore be the source of the excessive amounts of VSCs associated with BB. And that is perfectly feasible if there are any hidden infections elsewhere.
Dr. katz wants us all to believe that VSCs are only produced on the tongue surface, which is true if saliva can no longer bathe the tongue in sufficient quantities or the oral environment favours the anaerobic bacteria there. But everyone with certain dental issues, sinus and any other chronic infections will produce VSCs in those areas, which are likely to "contaminate" this absorbant tongue surface through its passage there in saliva and PND.
And regarding the sinuses, it is possible to have bacterial/fungal situations there with very few symptoms (apart from BB of course). These situations can start for many different reasons, and remain chronic for an indefinite amount of time. Many things can initiate such infections, including inherant anatomy. Nasal congestion and thickened mucus can also give rise to infection, even a simple cold. Acute sinusitis is very common, many cases of which go untreated and unresolved, leading to *guaranteed* chronic sinusitis if it lasts for long enough.
iva, as far as i know silent reflux can be asymptomatic, hence the name. But, also from what i've read, a PPI (proton pump inhibitor) quite literally shuts off all acid production. You've probably tried this before and apologies if you've mentioned it, but wouldnt that rule out acid reflux of any kind as the cause of your BB if you have?
I cant imagine anyone who has truly suffered with BB for so long and been fortunate enough to have found the cause of their BB to just disappear and forget the people who are going through the same desperation. It's purely because others have shared their experiences that i've been so fortunate.
I think most people upon realising that odours appear to come from the tongue begin brushing and scraping and fighting it with harsh chemicals and become trapped by this mostly futile routine and fear that if they dont they'll smell far worse.
The simple fact that EVERY mouth will produce BB if it is dehydrated or too alkaline proves a very important point. ALL humans have the right conditions to give rise to BB in those situations, such as during sleep for example.
So, if we are not dehydrated and we have normal chemistry, then something else must therefore be the source of the excessive amounts of VSCs associated with BB. And that is perfectly feasible if there are any hidden infections elsewhere.
Dr. katz wants us all to believe that VSCs are only produced on the tongue surface, which is true if saliva can no longer bathe the tongue in sufficient quantities or the oral environment favours the anaerobic bacteria there. But everyone with certain dental issues, sinus and any other chronic infections will produce VSCs in those areas, which are likely to "contaminate" this absorbant tongue surface through its passage there in saliva and PND.
And regarding the sinuses, it is possible to have bacterial/fungal situations there with very few symptoms (apart from BB of course). These situations can start for many different reasons, and remain chronic for an indefinite amount of time. Many things can initiate such infections, including inherant anatomy. Nasal congestion and thickened mucus can also give rise to infection, even a simple cold. Acute sinusitis is very common, many cases of which go untreated and unresolved, leading to *guaranteed* chronic sinusitis if it lasts for long enough.
iva, as far as i know silent reflux can be asymptomatic, hence the name. But, also from what i've read, a PPI (proton pump inhibitor) quite literally shuts off all acid production. You've probably tried this before and apologies if you've mentioned it, but wouldnt that rule out acid reflux of any kind as the cause of your BB if you have?
Iva,
After going to my ENT dr for almost 2 years, the last thing he told me with a lil smile on his face was to just keep rinsing my mouth with water, I sometimes feel like, as u said, drs know that its not life threatening so they don't solve it, they let ppl spend billions of dollars on mouthwashes n keep them distracted, so that they can make more money.
But seriousely AR is related to bb, Iva, right now i feel like somthing is crawling in my throat, thats how damaged my esophagus and throat is.
After going to my ENT dr for almost 2 years, the last thing he told me with a lil smile on his face was to just keep rinsing my mouth with water, I sometimes feel like, as u said, drs know that its not life threatening so they don't solve it, they let ppl spend billions of dollars on mouthwashes n keep them distracted, so that they can make more money.
But seriousely AR is related to bb, Iva, right now i feel like somthing is crawling in my throat, thats how damaged my esophagus and throat is.
Halitosisux,halitosisux wrote: iva, as far as i know silent reflux can be asymptomatic, hence the name. But, also from what i've read, a PPI (proton pump inhibitor) quite literally shuts off all acid production. You've probably tried this before and apologies if you've mentioned it, but wouldnt that rule out acid reflux of any kind as the cause of your BB if you have?
ur right. PPI which I`ve ben taking for the last 4 months, should have shut off all AR, if any and BB, if caused by it. Yet BB persists and still have this sour taste in my mouth and keep cleaning my throat. Now what do u thinmk this is?
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halitosisux
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iva, i replied with that to wnaysha earlier, but incase you didnt see it i've pasted it in here to answer your question too.halitosisux wrote: wnaysha,
wouldnt it be so much easier to answer this whole question once and for all regarding your presumed acid reflux cause to your sour taste/bb by taking drugs which block acid production for a while to see what effect this has?
Just to presume acid reflux is behind your sour taste (which is what most people with bb get anyway) could simply be barking up the wrong tree, especially if you have already ruled this out with a PPI.
I know how easy it is to feel convinced something like this is behind your problem, i sent my doctor crazy with it in the past. But realistically, do u not also feel its possible that you may have other reasons such as your sinuses producing the symptoms you have, as well as acid reflux which may only be exacerbating your problem. Many people have acid reflux, but they dont have BB.
wnaysha, for several years from the age of about 18 to 25 i had what i consider to be the symptoms of a stomach ulcer. Basically i had the most excruciating pain just below my breastbone, but only when i'd drink something acidic such as traditional lemonade, beer or red wine. They would literally have me curled up in agony for 20/30 minutes after. I still get that pain today if i consume these things on an empty stomach, but much milder than i used to. I was a smoker back then, and i thoght that might have been the factor because this mainly stopped when i stopped smoking.
Just after this all stopped, i read about the helicobacter connection to BB and i drove my doctor nuts trying to rule this out. Firstly he put me on a course of triple therapy for HP. Then i insisted on a blood test for HP, which was negative. Then to prove things beyond a doubt he sent me for an endoscopy. I was told i have nothing wrong, not even any scarring in my stomach, and i certainly wasnt infected with HP or had any signs of ulceration present.
So GOD knows what that was all about, because im a smoker again for the last few years yet i dont have the ulcer symptoms returning.
When i had my tonsillectomy i was given voltarol as a painkiller, which nobody stressed the importance of taking WITH food since its highly corrosive to the stomach, and i had those excruciating pains reappear even from hunger, and was constantly drinking milk which helped a lot.
I may just have a susceptible stomach.
wnaysha, you may feel what im about to say is to put you off this whole concept, but im telling you because its relevant. My dad has always had BULLET-PROOF good breath. He used to read us stories in bed on weekends and i never remember him having BB, not even in the mornings. A long time ago he suddenly felt very ill and collapsed. He was rushed to hospital with a perforated stomach ulcer right out of the blue. He always complained of acid and had to be so careful what he ate. Then a cpl of years later he had an operation in which he had an area of his stomach cut away and some other procedure which blocks or reduces acid production. He still complains to this day of constipation and his mouth is always quite dry, he has to watch what he eats and hardly drinks enough fluids, but now lives quite normally. Once, when we went away and he was left alone he was determined to unblock himself and made himself ILL by overdosing on ex-lax laxative. But i can remember him before all of his stomach issues and he never had BB before or after them. His tongue is quite coated, but NEVER has BB, just a very faint sour smell from time to time, which i would never describe as bad. Maybe he was just lucky and his acid reflux never gave rise to any sinus issues, but for some people with acid reflux it may do.
asd,
as u said it might not be the exact reason, but it can contribute to it. just the feeling of having damaged esophagus, and pnd caused by it makes it on of the biggest problems cusing bb, I have said earlier that i think bb occurs when certain things happen at the same time, so AR, pnd, and bacteria overgrowth in intestines, all are things that can cause bb.
as u said it might not be the exact reason, but it can contribute to it. just the feeling of having damaged esophagus, and pnd caused by it makes it on of the biggest problems cusing bb, I have said earlier that i think bb occurs when certain things happen at the same time, so AR, pnd, and bacteria overgrowth in intestines, all are things that can cause bb.
Iva,
since we know that our bb is not gona be cured today
, why don't we try something n see whether it causes bb or not. this is very interesting. Personally, everyone that I know, friends, sometimes family members, grandparents, with constipation had bb when they had constipation, if u really want to know whether constipation causes bb or not, just eat ur food, and don't go to the bathroom for a day or so, u can pee but not #2, n that might prove whether it really can cause bb or not, don't forget to smell ur breath in the morning, because that is when our noses haven't smelled our breath and can detect the real smell. I personally do go to bathroom on time, I don't have a lot of constipation problems, but after taking laxatives my bb has decreased tremendously, I wish taking laxatives weren't a bad thing, I would takem every single day if i could.
since we know that our bb is not gona be cured today
, why don't we try something n see whether it causes bb or not. this is very interesting. Personally, everyone that I know, friends, sometimes family members, grandparents, with constipation had bb when they had constipation, if u really want to know whether constipation causes bb or not, just eat ur food, and don't go to the bathroom for a day or so, u can pee but not #2, n that might prove whether it really can cause bb or not, don't forget to smell ur breath in the morning, because that is when our noses haven't smelled our breath and can detect the real smell. I personally do go to bathroom on time, I don't have a lot of constipation problems, but after taking laxatives my bb has decreased tremendously, I wish taking laxatives weren't a bad thing, I would takem every single day if i could.-
halitosisux
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asd, the reason why a certain doctor spent years trying to convince people of the connection between a certain bacteria and stomach ulcers was because it was considered that no bacteria could live in the acidic environment of the stomach. The reason why helicobacter can survive in there is because it surrounds itself in ammonia which neutralizes the acid (or something like that). So unless someone is producing very little acid its not likely.
If there are any such "bad bacteria" (i dont know what people mean by bad bacteria because the bacteria in every mouth can give rise to BB if the conditions are right) they are more likely to be there because there is infection, ie the gums or decaying teeth/sinuses or they just get in the mouth like any other bacteria. Just imagine how many different germs must enter the mouth each day, but its only the types of germs which the conditions of the mouth favour, which battle it out and eventually form the oral flora.
If there are any such "bad bacteria" (i dont know what people mean by bad bacteria because the bacteria in every mouth can give rise to BB if the conditions are right) they are more likely to be there because there is infection, ie the gums or decaying teeth/sinuses or they just get in the mouth like any other bacteria. Just imagine how many different germs must enter the mouth each day, but its only the types of germs which the conditions of the mouth favour, which battle it out and eventually form the oral flora.
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halitosisux
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