Chronic halitosis, Rhinitis, PND, bacterial imbalance

joeP · Post by **joeP** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:22 pm

@ikageorgian: BTW, I did the "spit into a glass" test...my saliva is cloudy at first...and stays on the top...there were no legs like strings...the saliva remains on the surface and did become less cloudy.

I've also attached pics of my tongue...sorry I know...gross

Peace · Post by **Peace** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:24 pm

JoeP,
I have similar symptoms. I have tried probiotics and it made things worse, so I would stay away from that and milk products. Saline nasal rinse helps, adding alkalol seems to sooth inflamed sinuses, currently experimenting with lemongrass oil in saline.

I do think the problem is PND even if clear, either some bacteria that should not be there are carried on tongue or some of us produce high levels of proteins containing sulfur-based amino acids? In any case for me target is to decrease PND through diet and rinse and decrease tongue coating. I scape tongue with baby shampoo and chlorehexidine when ever needed.
Stay strong.

joeP · Post by **joeP** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:21 pm

@Peace, thx for your message.

What symptoms do you have? How would you rate your BB? I would give mine 9-10 out of 10 right now. It used to be around 5-6 two weeks ago. I've had it for 10 years so I can judge based on reactions, as I have a lot of contact with people in my job.

Also, what sort of probiotics did you try?
I also have a feeling that the K12 by katz that I tried for 5 days has something to do with my worsened condition...but I can't rule out stomach or other organ related issues yet.

I was planning to take culturelle over the next few weeks...hoping that would help somehow. Do you not take any probiotics at all?

I do not consume any milk products apart from low calorie probiotic yogurt once in the morning.

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:16 pm

Joe, good luck with your blood tests.
Your tongue looks quite good to me. Do a Google images search for oral candida and compare.

The fact that your saliva doesn't smell at all, and that Zinc based oral products don't make much difference to your BB, indicates that your odour probably doesn't originate from your mouth or tongue.

Does your doctor smell anything?

joeP · Post by **joeP** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:50 pm

Thanks halitosisux,

I think it is at least partly oral linked with PND and dry mouth.... as it used to get better when I brushed my teeth and tongue and used mouth washes for several years....it only got extremely worse a couple of weeks ago. I also have a completely white tongue in the morning and if I don't brush for half a day.

Yes my GP smelled it strongly as well as everyone else in the practice.

I need to understand how to discover if I have extra-oral blood borne halitosis. Does the blood or urine have a distinct smell?

Since late last week I'm already trying to treat possible extra-oral non-blood borne halitosis from upper respiratory tract possibly due to rhinitis with saline nasal rinse and mouth washes without much luck. Can anyone tell me if steroid sprays had positive impact on this type of halitosis? Anything else I should try?

Now in order to find halitosis from the lower respiratory tract, I'm awaiting blood tests and stool results. I've also started medication to help settle the acidity levels in my stomach as prescribed by my GP. Any other important tests I should get done right now?

Anything else I can do?

I'm trying to find a cure which gives me a few hours of peace...for now

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:05 pm

I would not dimiss TMAU on the basis of not smelling fishy. Read about secondary or acquired TMAU. Garbage and fecal odour are the descriptions usually given, not fishy. TMA does not smell fishy at low concentrations, as would occur in secondary TMAU compared to primary TMAU.

Search for forum member "malory". He/she has bad breath, occasional minor body odour in certain parts of the body, and has been recently diagnosed with secondary TMAU.

You could try cutting down on the foods which are high in choline, to see what happens to your breath. You could also try choline supplements to see if it worsens.

Also, hydrogen peroxide will oxidize (neutralize) any TMA in your mouth or throat. So too will chlorine dioxide. But if the smell has started coming from your lungs then that's probably not going to make much difference if you try these.

ruch · Post by **ruch** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:36 am

try lactoferrin for tongue coating. i think that is why mine has reduced most of the time.

Peace · Post by **Peace** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:38 pm

@JoeP,

At my worst it's fecal breath in the morning and my best 1-2 hrs of ok breath if I brush tongue do nasal rinse and..chew gum. So pretty bad. But still have great family and am top dog at work so psychologically can control it...most of the time. I have had bb for decades since I was 11, no doubt about it, my father was pretty ruthless in his remarks which I am actually thankful for as it got me ready for the rest of my life.

Now, like I said I do strongly think that the problem is with my clear, clingy PND. I know this is early, but I started a nasal rinse with 250 mg lactoferrin and 2 teaspoon xylitol in 1 cup saline with sinusense irrigator and this morning I woke with fresh breath. This NEVER happened to me.
I tried this based on a link posted by ruch, which contains another link on an MD who treats diabetic ulcers with this combo with great success by breaking biofilms. It works so well that he refuses to do placebo controls.
I will follow up, but believe this may be working...

joeP · Post by **joeP** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:34 pm

@halitosisux: I still don't believe its TMAU2 but I will speak with my GP about it. BTW, I was not able to find malory.

@ruch: is your BB better due to lactoferrin...I think you've been taking it for a while...correct?

@Peace: I have a feeling that my BB "may" be coming from the stomach/gut too since recent...how else can I explain the sudden increase in the smell being noticed by others. Still needs to be confirmed though. I'll try and get an appointment for an endoscopy next week

I'm still taking omeprazole as prescribed by my GP and doing the following:

Nasal
I'm doing saline and sodium bicarbonate nasal rinse once a day...I may up it to twice a day from tomorrow.

Mouth
To rinse and gargle 2-3 times a day....I'm still using dentyl PH, Smartmouth and now therabreath plus oral rinse (the new formula).
Also still using hydrogen peroxide to rinse the mouth in the morning.
Using chlorhexidine mouthwash to floss with waterpik 2-3 times a day.
Orabrush Tongue cleaner dipped in chlorhexidine mouthwash and fingers to brush the tongue.

Oil pulling:
I've "stopped" doing the oil pulling as I don't really believe in it...has it helped anyone yet on this forum?

Misc
I'm also starting from today chlorofresh tabs, ginger tabs, green tea tabs, culturelle and bio kult Cadea (which has 7 strains of probiotics, garlic and graepfruit seed extract).
Also taking Vit C and Zinc tabs, chewable vit c, mutlivitamins with probioitics and

What about digestive enzymes etc?

Diet
I was already on very low sugar foods and no dairy other than yogurt for years.
I've now also started cutting down on yeast..not sure why as I don't have candida...so no more white bread

Also, I'm not eating any meat for a few days...eating nuts instead

Now I won't really know what helps..if anything...as I'm doing so many things...but what do you guys think will help and won't?

What lactoferrin and grapefruit seed extract would you suggest?

I've stopped going to work for now until this gets better...I hope in a few days I should be able to head back!

I'm thinking it may help to meet someone to see if we can smell each other and find the source. Anyone in London want to meet up?

Thanks a lot so far to all who are trying to help!!!

Peace · Post by **Peace** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:16 pm

I have been using swanson and jarrows lactoferrin. Give a try to the lactoferrin + xylitol nasal rinse, this is a serious approach tested in clinic for biofilms. You should now very quickly if this works for you, like the following day.

FedUp · Post by **FedUp** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:41 pm

I got a question for you white tonguers

Is your coating permanent?

The regular person (without BB) Can scrape the white and there tongue is pink again.

No matter how much I scrub mine, it stays white, it's as if something grown on my tongue.

I can scrape alot of white, but theres always this little patch that stays.

Today I've not brushed my teeth at all, I woke up and thought ***k it whats the point. I'm just so sick and tired of it. whats the point in brushing for 10 minutes just for nothing.

Ironically my tongue doesn't stink, I just did the rub test from my finger on tongue to hand.

god I hate my life atm. sat in on a friday night alone....... ****ing excellent.

last year I was going out problem free getting drunk having fun.

joeP · Post by **joeP** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:32 pm

Peace wrote:I have been using swanson and jarrows lactoferrin. Give a try to the lactoferrin + xylitol nasal rinse, this is a serious approach tested in clinic for biofilms. You should now very quickly if this works for you, like the following day.

@Peace, thanks, I've ordered 250 MG jarrows lactoferrin capsules. I should have them soon. Also will get xylitol tomorrow and try it with the nasal rinse.

@FedUp, the white coating is not completely permanent in my case. It seems to go away from most of the tongue after I brush it and use mouthwash...but only for a bit...minutes, maybe an hour. Also in my case the very back usually stays white as in the pics above.

I also can't smell something wrong with my saliva or tongue...that doesn't mean there isn't a problem there though.

ruch · Post by **ruch** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:39 am

some things i have tried recently that helps (but does not cure it), aside from the usual brushing, flossing, scraping tongue and using zinc, chlorhexidine and chlorine dioxide rinses.

- flushing the sinuses with a saline solution (baking soda & salt with filtered water), mixed with 1/2 tbsp xylitol. can also mix in 2-3 drops of grapefruit seed extract (GSE) & 1 drop of oil of oregano (i find the oregano stings a bitm especially if you use too much).
this works well for me.. i started doing it every morning and evening and it has reduced my PND and also my bb.. which leads me to deduce that a lot of my bb is prob due to PND)

- irrigating gumline with hydrofloss machine, adding 30 drops of GSE and the "pocket pal" tip

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:47 am

JoeP, have a thorough read through these:-
search.php?search_author=malory

halitosisux · Post by **halitosisux** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:55 am

I think that when the tongue gets damaged or irritated (as it could do from some of the chemicals in some mouthwashes and toothpastes and from scraping and brushing too hard) the structure of the papillae begins to change into more of a kerotin layer instead of soft mucosal layer.

Kerotin is the stuff hair and nails are made of. Think of a cat's tongue. Humans probably have some kind of dormant reason that all mammals have for the tongue to need to be able to become rough like that, and kerotin is the way the body has probably evolved to make rough areas of dead cells where required, like on the ends of our fingers and toes. The tongue being no exception.

A cat's tongue is probably rough like that for grooming reasons.

(edit - Keratin not kerotin)