New to the forum, some ideas

[TeamZissou]

Hi everyone. I've lurked here for awhile now and can completely empathize with what you're all going through. Like many of you, I began experiencing BB sometime around age 14 or 15, and am now 22. I really can't be sure when it began, but it got worse to some degree over the few years following that, and has kind of stablized. It isn't enough to inhibit my ability to go to school or work, but it does destroy my confidence with girls to the point where I don't attempt to date.

I've thought long and hard about this problem, as i'm sure you all have, and have a modest background in medically-related science, which helps. I'm by no means claiming to be any kind of expert though.

I have both my tonsils and adenoids, as well as all 4 wisdom teeth, though they appear to be fully erupted and healthy. I do have tonsil stones, but in my opinion they are merely a symptom of the greater unknown problem, whatever that may be. I also have nearly continuous partial nasal obstruction, from what feels like dry and inflammed tissue in my nasal passages, possibly even hypertropic adenoids, though i've never been scoped. I do have some PND as well.

I just thought i'd give my symptoms so that you can compare them.

I've read about people's thoughts on GERD, allergies, candida infections, vitamin deficiencies, dietary habits, and the like, but have heard of very few people being cured by targeting those potential causes. Some have seen improvement with things like probiotics and strict diets, which is good, but in my mind it feels more like symptom control than actually getting to the root of the problem. Most American's abuse anti-biotics and have atrocious dietary habits, but don't get BB. This is what makes me skeptical about a chronic candida infection or disrupted bacterial flora being the cause. The fact that many people seem to begin having symptoms just after puberty or in their teens also makes me suspicious of this. I have read that people with BB harbor certain strains of bacteria that healthy people do not, but again i'm inclined to see this as more of an effect than a cause.

So some ideas i've come up with:

Hormone imbalance or deficiency: Hormones control nearly all bodily functions to some degree. Their levels and activity also change dramatically during puberty, the time many people notice symptoms beginning. I have also heard a few different pregrant women say they experienced tonsil stones and BB during pregrancy that went away after. Hormones are also in flux during this time, but a number of other things, like digestion, are also disrupted.

Autoimmune: Most people here have heard of Chron's disease i'm guessing, which is chronic inflammation of the intestine when your own immune system attacks it. The same is true for things like dandruff and psoriasis. I don't see why the same thing isn't possible in your throat and sinuses. This could leave the tissues there vulnerable to infection and deprived of air, leading to VSC's accumulating. All of those conditions are also made worse by stress, as BB appears to be.

I don't know. Just two things i've though of. If anyone has any thoughts on them or has considered them, i'd be very interested to hear your thoughts.

I'd also like to add that i'm slightly underweight, and often feel somewhat tired. No matter what I eat I have difficulty gaining weight. This has been going on since I was a teenager. I have a gut feeling that this is somehow related.

Anyways sorry this was so long. Thanks to anyone who responds.

[Melissa Marie]

Just wanted to tell ALL of you thank you for having so much courage to come and talk about this subject for all of us to hear...I absolutely feel very grateful to be here right now...I realize that this is not the easiest subject to discuss and I mean no disrespect for this message, but wanted so much to tell all of you that there are huge amounts of healing taking place here on earth and there are many not so wonderful things coming to the surface...from deep within..this includes mind, body and spirit.. and we must release all these feelings and emotions that come up as they are a very important part of us. This is from your past...YOUR BODY IS HEALING!

So as this happens many toxin are leaving your body at this time..please allow this to happen and don't be discouraged because your body will heal in time, and this includes what brings us here at this moment. You can help along this process by firstly living a balanced life...you do this by realizing that you are a spiritual being first;and human second..heal your soul energetically and treat your body wonderful!! As within, so without..
There are a number of suggestions to start your healing process because I know you all want to be able to love with all your heart and show it in ALL ways!
1) Cleanse your colon with colon hydrotherapy- This may seem uncomfortable but trust that whatever it is holding you back from living the life you were meant to live is the years and years of taking toxins into your digestion system! Disease starts in your stomach Please understand that the digestion system and your emotions are very connected and you will undergo a huge tranformation as it will feel all the dirt is being lifted and an extreme release of negativity is pulled away and from you. It is a glorious feeling and I promise you this..
You will have to be on the healing path when you are finished as this should be a lifestyle change and you need to work at keeping your body healthy, all things will change in time..TRUST ME
2) Reflexology treatments- The reason reflexology can also help is because your hands and your feet mirror your body..the egyptians knew of this powerful healing modality. Between your large and small intestine there is a doorway called the 'illeocecal valve'. What happens when this door is open is you will find the odor coming from your colon is in your breath.If there is a great chance that this doorway is open, the way to close it is to find a good reflexologist that can shut it for you by rubbing up on it 3x or go the extra step and learn something new and do it yourself!
3)Saying affirmations- This may seem like nothing but are very powerful intentions!! A lot of us souls are healing from the past, in this lifetime and others. Remember who you are and trust that if you ask the LORD to help you achieve this goal..what will you give in return..? Remember that your intentions should not just be for yourself but others as well..what are you willing to give of yourselves to make this world a better place for the creator and yourself..? An example for myself is I told him I would try to heal an teach as many people as I can from this experience..and hopefully I am on the beginning on that path!
By affirmations I mean something your subconscience will eventually grasp as the truth because we are all healing from old thought patterns as well..one to try is 'I release the past with love' or 'I am happy and well' or 'I am clean and healthy' or 'I am beautiful' or 'I am love and light' or 'I am worthy of all the love and goodness in life'
4) Drink tons of ionized water!!- This water just hydrates every part of your being! You will feel the difference once you try it..no joke
Feeling cleansed can happen...believe it, live it, be it....!!
5) Above all...Continue on your healing path!!
There are many othe different healing modalties that you will discover when it is your time to but until then, SET your intention to HEAL and everything will follow in time...

[halitosisux]

Hi TeamZissou, welcome to the club we all wish we werent in..

Im a newbie on here too, thanks for sharing your story with us, there's plenty to think about there, and im looking forward to hearing more from you and any discussions that may follow.

The concept of hormones or any other biological causes, does a healthy body normally know what correct balance of hormones it needs to have in order to have things just right so that there's no bacterial overgrowth to cause BB? is it just a coincidence that people who are BB-free have this correct balance? or could this fine-balance be a part of evolution which happens to be faulty in us? if so, how on earth has no-one discovered this seemingly simple connection yet?

Regarding pregnant women, ive read that there's a link with the gums, relating to hormones, that the seal around the teeth becomes defective in some way allowing bacteria in and blood to seep out, allowing more favourable conditions for bacterial overgrowth in the mouth.

Autoimmune diseases - a good possibility for a connection, but would this be the same as such things as rhinitis and asthma, and if not would the symptoms not be far more severe? also i know plenty of people with asthma and rhinitis who dont have BB.

[TeamZissou]

Melissa- Thanks for the reply and suggestions. I also believe that mental health can play a significant role in physical health, and that it needs to be paid attention to.

Halitosisux- I hadn't heard that about the gums of pregnant women. I can't think of a logical reason for why that would happen. I do think a lot can be learned by thinking about why they experience those symptoms though. To me, hormones and digestive issues make the most sense, because they are the two things most severely disrupted.

Different cells line the nasal passage and nasopharynx than those of the bronchus and lower in the lung, so asthma wouldn't necessarily be related I don't think, but it's interesting to consider. Rhinitis can be caused by any number of things, but it just doesn't seem like allergic rhinitis causes BB in the vast majority of people who have it, even when they have PND and chronic nasal obstruction. This leads me to think it is something else.

[halitosisux]

hello melissa, thanks for that too - do u have bb?

TeamZissou, thanx for your reply..
I need to recap on this regarding pregnant women and the clues this might have. It was something like i said anyway, and definitely regarding bleeding gums and hormones.
This connection with tongue coating and digestive system - someone explain it to me please. All i can think of is de-hydration or lack of abrasion when someone isnt eating very well (both connected to digestive problems potentially). Personally i think the connection with tongue coatings/bacterial overgrowth and digestive system is some old-wives tale which lingers still in the absense of any scientific explanations. A piss-poor excuse that doctors still use to fob us off with. I know plenty of people who eat diabolical diets, abuse their bodies severely, and they dont have BB, why the hell should someone with a bit of constipation or whatever have this chronic problem in their mouths connected to that??

Regarding your theory on autoimmune diseases, when i mentioned asthma and rhinitis, what i meant is, if there was something going on in the oral nasal mucosa or throat etc, as it does with crohn's disease in the intestines.. would the symptoms not be so severe that diagnosis would be easily and instantly recognised?

[asd]

Welcome guys. Interesting stuff and good input.
Lots of new faces around, which is excellent. I think mainstream medicine is really a dead end for us. We need to keep open minds to alternative medicine eg reflexology as Melissa suggested.

[Archimonde]

TeamZissou, loved your post. It's refreshing to hear new theories.

At some point, we'll have to get past discussing the same old things that have been discussed over and over again in the last 10 years (products, probiotics, vitamins, ops, etc) as they're clearly not working. We need to look into new possibilities.


@Melissa Marie

Colon irrigation does nothing for bb, i tried in 2006. 5 day on a juice diet and 20 mins of irrigation a day for 5 days, didn't help at all. 500$ down the drain.

[TeamZissou]

hello melissa, thanks for that too - do u have bb?

TeamZissou, thanx for your reply..
I need to recap on this regarding pregnant women and the clues this might have. It was something like i said anyway, and definitely regarding bleeding gums and hormones.
This connection with tongue coating and digestive system - someone explain it to me please. All i can think of is de-hydration or lack of abrasion when someone isnt eating very well (both connected to digestive problems potentially). Personally i think the connection with tongue coatings/bacterial overgrowth and digestive system is some old-wives tale which lingers still in the absense of any scientific explanations. A piss-poor excuse that doctors still use to fob us off with. I know plenty of people who eat diabolical diets, abuse their bodies severely, and they dont have BB, why the hell should someone with a bit of constipation or whatever have this chronic problem in their mouths connected to that??

Regarding your theory on autoimmune diseases, when i mentioned asthma and rhinitis, what i meant is, if there was something going on in the oral nasal mucosa or throat etc, as it does with crohn's disease in the intestines.. would the symptoms not be so severe that diagnosis would be easily and instantly recognised?

Thanks for the reply.

I agree this likely isn't a simple matter of poor digestion. Now, the idea that poor motility and consitpation could lead to the build up of toxins in your body and lymph (lingual/palatine tonsils and adenoids), thereby causing a low-grade chronic infection, seems plausible in theory. But like you said, many BB free individuals have horrible diets, and most of those with BB who have tried diets/clenses/detoxs/etc haven't found relief.

In regards to autoimmune issues, I do see your point. But, Chron's is a special case, because inflammation of the intestines is so painful, because of the cramping and large numbers of nerve endings located there. Dandruff, for example, isn't necessarily severe, though there is often an autoimmune process going on there. If something like that were happening in your throat/nasopharyx/etc, it seems plausible to me that it could be happening on a chronic basis, but not severely enough to cause significant pain. But, your point is well taken, and i'll have to think that over a bit more.

[TeamZissou]

TeamZissou, loved your post. It's refreshing to hear new theories.

At some point, we'll have to get past discussing the same old things that have been discussed over and over again in the last 10 years (products, probiotics, vitamins, ops, etc) as they're clearly not working. We need to look into new possibilities.


@Melissa Marie

Colon irrigation does nothing for bb, i tried in 2006. 5 day on a juice diet and 20 mins of irrigation a day for 5 days, didn't help at all. 500$ down the drain.

Thanks for the kind words Archimonde. I really feel like the more minds that are engaged in this, the quicker we'll all find answers. I know they exist. There is a physiological reason why this is happening.

Another idea i've been kicking around, just to get them all out here, is an over-stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system (or under-stimulation of the parasympathatic nervous system).

Here's a quick description: "The autonomic nervous system directs all activities of the body that occur without a person's conscious control, such as breathing and food digestion. It has two parts: the sympathetic division, which is most active in times of stress, and the parasympathetic division, which controls maintenance activities and helps conserve the body's energy."

So, when your sympathetic nervous system is active, salivation is inhibited, digestion is inhibited, and all energy is directed into reinforcing the fight-or-flight response. Heart rate increases, glucose is released by the liver for use by muscles etc. Basically, the body is preparing to defend itself.

The parasympathetic nervous system does the opposite essentially, by stimulating both salivation and digestion, and other bodily functions that aren't essential to defense and the fight-or-flight stress response.

It occured to me that perhaps the sympathetic nervous systems of BB individuals are chronically over-stimulated a slight amount, thereby leading to decreased salivation (which could be the sensation of PND due to overly thick mucous) and digestive problems like constipation. Dry nasal and throat tissue could result in irriation and swelling, making it more susceptible to sub-acute infection. This also fits with the fact that BB is made worse by stress (increased stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system).

I also remember one member here saying awhile back that they saw greatly reduced BB while on a neurological drug. I don't recall exactly what it was, but I believe it had something to do with regulating the levels of a neurotransmitter.

I also personally am a pretty nervous person, have trouble gaining weight, have dry mouth, as well as poor intenstinal motility at times. This seems to fit to some degree in my mind, but I know not everyone with BB has a situation that fits with this.

Sorry this was so long-winded and technical at times. I just needed to get all of these ideas down in writing.

I'd love to hear any other thoughts about any of these issues. Thanks to all who responded already.

[halitosisux]

Another potential possibility there TeamZissou and not something i've ever seen mentioned as a connection before.

It's always hard visualise these mechanisms as to whether they could be root causes themselves or whether they are possibly exacerbating other situations. The trouble is with so many theories is that if they could be the underlying reasons behind BB then you would expect everyone with those symptoms to have BB when they definitely do not. And as with digestive problems, causing dehydration for instance or lack of apetite (less abrasion to scrape away the dead cells on the tongue), they affect the natural system which would normally prevent perceivable levels of odour to build up.

I still think that while its possible that people can have low-grade chronic infections, typically going undetected and generally asymtomatic apart from common nuisances like PND etc, this to me is the only logical explanation and the only one which can be supported by factual evidence and current understandings. How many times do we hear of cases where some sort of infection was fortunately eradicated by chance discovery, along with their halitosis?

[TeamZissou]

Another potential possibility there TeamZissou and not something i've ever seen mentioned as a connection before.

It's always hard visualise these mechanisms as to whether they could be root causes themselves or whether they are possibly exacerbating other situations. The trouble is with so many theories is that if they could be the underlying reasons behind BB then you would expect everyone with those symptoms to have BB when they definitely do not. And as with digestive problems, causing dehydration for instance or lack of apetite (less abrasion to scrape away the dead cells on the tongue), they affect the natural system which would normally prevent perceivable levels of odour to build up.

I still think that while its possible that people can have low-grade chronic infections, typically going undetected and generally asymtomatic apart from common nuisances like PND etc, this to me is the only logical explanation and the only one which can be supported by factual evidence and current understandings. How many times do we hear of cases where some sort of infection was fortunately eradicated by chance discovery, along with their halitosis?

Yeah that's a good point. I don't know how you can actively go about trying to deal with a chronic infection though, especially if you've already had your tonsils and adenoids out and they weren't the problem. People who have taken antibiotics haven't gotten better.

I think one way to cover all the bases is to try and become significantly more healthy in general, and hopefully your body will pick up the slack. I consider myself to be slightly underweight and don't have much energy, most likely because I don't eat enough and do little physical activity. I've started to eat more and workout a good amount to try and reverse this, and hopefully that will boost my overall immunity.

How are you exercise habits and energy levels? This question is open to anyone.

[azishazi]

Well I have carefully read what everyone had to say, but in my case I at least know that if i really stick the irrigator up my tonsils and wash it out, and then irrigate my nose and clean my tongue all the way back and really mean all the way back, then my bb is gone for at least 5-10 mins. This the reason i believe that i just have post nasal drip, because the stink in my throat and tonsils and throat is basically tons of mucus. This is also one reason added with the fact that I've had this problem for a while, that i can tell exactly how bad my breath is, and I can kinda tell from far someone will be able to sense it.

Anyhow but when i drain all the mucus from my nose i still feel the stink.

When i drain my tonsils out i can feel the stink coming from throat.

And finally throat, and then i can feel clean for 5 mins before it comes back.

I dont know if that helps, but doctors have told me before that my nasal passaged close to my throat are inflammed.

I saw someone on these forums once tell her story that they saw through a ultra-sound that there was stuff coming up from her esophagus into her nose calling pnd.

I'm not even sure if that is even possible. Some of you seem very Knowledgeable about the general body. Im not even sure if esophagus causing pnd is even possible. Even if there was a malfunction in the esophagus. Would it cause pnd?

well id love some feed back in all this.

takecare.

[TeamZissou]

Well the reflux she was probably referring to was acid reflux, and many people experience it. It can often cause PND. The condition is called GERD or LPR, depending on how far up the acid travels. There's a ton on google about them both.

PND is definitely the fuel for BB. The question is, is that the primary cause of it, or does it merely feed the cause, whatever that may be. Mucous on its own shouldn't have a significant smell. I'm inclinded to think there is something else different about people with BB than just having PND.

[azishazi]

Yes, i have heard that mucus does not have a smell, but what if it was overly excessive. Specially when i clean my tongue all the way back, almost down my throat (its not easy), i can actually feel stinky stuff dripping down my tongue, kind of taste it.

but i think it could be the fact that i am using hydroperoxide in my rinses and nasal irrigation and it mixes with the mucus and produce the taste.

But i cleaned my tongue and irrigated my nose and i was sitting in class, when i felt this enormously bad tasting stuff drip down from either tonsil or nose.

I was kind happy because at least i could taste the bad stuff.

I am guessing since my tongue and nose were clean, old pnd dripped out of my tonsils.

So i just irrigated the tonsils really well, I am going to see what happens.

I am not sure at this point what kind of doctor i should see for this.

[azishazi]

correct: i think since my tongue was cleaned and so was my nose, I could finally taste the bad stuff that came out of my tonsils, as opposed to when it is all mucusy everwhere, i cannot tell since its all filthy.